Ashamed to Admit
Are you ashamed to admit you're not across the big issues and events affecting Jews in Australia, Israel and around the Jewish world?
In this new podcast from online publication The Jewish Independent, Your Third Cousin Tami Sussman and TJI's Dashiel Lawrence tackle the week's 'Chewiest and Jewiest' topics.
Ashamed to Admit
Episode #11 Jewish Olympic Gold, Looking forward (and back), and AS seagulls
In their first episode of Season 2, Tami and Dash discuss their respective international trips and share audience highlights from Season 1. Plus Jewish-Australian Olympic success stories and some bidet appreciation.
Articles referenced or adjacent to the topics discussed in this episode
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/the-one-question-people-ask-me-when-i-get-home-from-turkey
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/meet-barbara-butch-fatqueer-jewish-and-olympics-opener-icon
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/battling-for-sanity-in-an-information-war
About the job at Jewish Climate Network:
www.jcn.org.au
Email your feedback, questions, show ideas etc: ashamed@thejewishindependent.com.au
(You can also email voice memos here).
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Hi, tammy and Dash. This is not a pronunciation patrol, but rather an offering, tam. As you may know, in storytelling there is the rule of threes and whilst I do love the intro and the Aslan couplets Chewyist and Jewiest I thought perhaps there could be an episode where you say Chewiest, gooiest and Jewiest and we could enjoy a trifecta of similarly sounding words strung together. Excited for season two.
Speaker 2:Are you ashamed to admit that you're not across some of the issues affecting Jews in Australia, the Middle East and the world at large? I'm Tammy Sussman and in this podcast series I ask journalist, historian and TJI's executive director, dashiell Lawrence, all the ignorant questions that I, and maybe you, are too embarrassed to ask.
Speaker 3:I'm Dashiell Lawrence and I'm going to attempt to answer most of Tammy's questions. Sometimes I might have to bring in an expert and sometimes I might have a few questions of my own.
Speaker 2:But together, dash and I are going to try to cut through the weeks or months chewiest, jewiest, okay, and sometimes even gooiest topics.
Speaker 3:Welcome to the Jewish Independent Podcast. A shame to admit. Hello Melbourne, hello Sydney, Brisbane, Perth, Adelaide, Darwin, Launceston, and hello to our lone listener on the island of Ibiza, off the coast of spain. We're back. This is season two of a shame to admit. I'm dash lawrence from the jewish independent and I'm cold congested, jet lagged.
Speaker 2:But boy oh boy, am I excited to be here back with you.
Speaker 3:It's your third cousin, tammy sussman it's good to see you again, tam Tammy.
Speaker 2:You too, dash, it's been ages.
Speaker 3:It's been two months. I had my holiday, you had yours.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't describe mine as a holiday. I've rebranded it as an adventure, but we'll get to that in a minute. Dash, you went to Vietnam Vietnam with your partner not wife your children and your in-laws, which is perhaps the most Jewish thing I've ever heard.
Speaker 3:What makes the addition of the in-laws the Jewish part of it?
Speaker 2:Travelling with in-laws. It's like you can't quite cut that umbilical cord.
Speaker 3:Yes, it's cute, it's also strategic. It went with the in-laws so that I could just get a moment of peace. Big shout out to my in-laws, who were terrific travel companions and happy to indulge my predilections for all things sweet and dessert.
Speaker 2:I want to tell you something Okay hang on.
Speaker 3:What do you want to tell me?
Speaker 2:Just to let our listeners know, Dash has a sick child with him today, little Solly. So he just had his first podcast cameo appearance. We're professionals here at A Shame, to Admit, Dash. What did Solly have to tell you?
Speaker 3:He wanted to know where you were because he can't see you and he's looking at my podcast desk and wondering if you're trapped in the desk.
Speaker 2:Hi, Solly Hi, when am I Look, physically I'm not trapped in the desk, but emotionally I often feel like I'm trapped in the desk. Okay, Well, great chat.
Speaker 3:Yeah, big shout out to the in-laws, who were terrific travel companions. But, tammy, I just wanted to run this one past you how do you tell the other diners at your resort breakfast buffet that you're a Jewish grandparent without actually telling them that you're Jewish?
Speaker 2:I'll answer this. I'll get this the first time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, go on.
Speaker 2:You bring snap lock bags and containers to put food in for later.
Speaker 3:Yep.
Speaker 2:Yep, so obvious to me, dash. This is very normal behavior. For me. I am worried we're going to get some feedback complaining that we are solidifying Jewish stereotypes.
Speaker 3:Can I just say that there is nothing wrong with this, because that food 100% was going in the bin or was going to be wasted.
Speaker 2:And I've seen people from other cultures doing it too. But you, having grown up not in a Jewish family, in a not very Jewish part of the world, in Adelaide, suburban Adelaide, did you have any kind of shame? Were you ashamed to admit that they were your in-laws?
Speaker 3:Like we never went to resorts growing up or never went to places that would have had buffets, so the opportunity to load up and walk out of the breakfast buffet with a whole bounty of goods was not something that I was ever able to do, so it never occurred to me that you would do that For the record.
Speaker 2:I also did not grow up going on fancy holidays, but you don't necessarily need a buffet to have some plastic containers for later. You can do it anywhere, any place, any time.
Speaker 3:Any Jewish family occasion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, at my sister's engagement party we had limited numbers and of course my dad has like 100 first cousins, so we invited the first cousins but we couldn't invite their children. So one cousin made it obvious that she was brogues about this. She came over with her own container and looked at my mom and said I am packing a container for my children who were not invited to this engagement party. Isn't that fantastic. Ah dear, this shit writes itself.
Speaker 3:I want to dig a little deeper into your time in Turkey, but in particular a little island off the coast of Istanbul that I'd never heard of until you found your way there for much of the four weeks that you were away.
Speaker 2:I did go to Turkey over the break to visit my in-laws, to introduce my kids to their great-grandmother, their great-grandaunt, aunts, cousins, and, yes, I did spend quite a bit of time on the island of Byukara. I've written a piece for the Jewish Independent about my time there and about the most frequently asked question heading into the trip, which was aren't you worried about antisemitism? To the trip, which was aren't you worried about antisemitism? And the most frequently asked question coming back from the trip, and that was so, did you experience any antisemitism? So, because I had a word limit in that piece, I couldn't provide a full, extensive list of the things that were and were not antisemitic on the trip trip, so I thought we could go through them now. I'll list one and then you can guess whether it was or wasn't. So you ready, dash, go for it. Okay, the weather.
Speaker 3:Not anti-Semitic.
Speaker 2:The temperature in Istanbul and Beyoğduk sat around 38 degrees for most of our time there, and the air conditioning is hard to come by. At best it's in a living room and that's considered a luxury. So I deem those factors to be anti-Semitic. And by the end of the trip, my kids just downright refused to wear shirts, which I know your eldest, Solly, also did in Vietnam, which isn't ideal at the best of times, but it's really not ideal when you're in a conservative Muslim country. So that just completely ruled out any visits to any mosques. Okay, Bidet toilets.
Speaker 3:Well, I've read your article, so I know that you regard that as actually philo, philo-semi.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's the most philo-semitic invention ever.
Speaker 3:We're building a house at the moment. The ensuite toilet to the master bedroom is going to have a bidet.
Speaker 2:A handheld one or one that's inbuilt into the toilet.
Speaker 3:One that's built into the toilet.
Speaker 2:Okay, true story. For my 30th, my parents asked me what I would like Like. They wanted to get me something to acknowledge the milestones, something, you know, that could potentially become a family heirloom. They said do you want a nice piece of jewellery? And I said I would like a bidet installed in my bathroom. And so that's what I received for my 30th a hose, a butt hose. Okay, moving right along seagulls.
Speaker 3:Oh, very anti-Semitic.
Speaker 2:I did touch on this in the article. So during our stay on the island of Bukhara which is like an hour ferry ride from Istanbul, where a lot of Istanbul's Jews summer so during our stay, an extended family of seagulls I'm talking like not just one small family, but a little like kibbutz decided to nest on multiple windowsills and they were screeching all night long. They shat all over our balcony furniture. One of them shat on my youngest's face. Turkish seagulls are extremely anti-Semitic and it got to the point where I was texting the family group chat saying like, just to preface this, I'm a, I'm an animal lover, but how can I get rid of the seagulls? My family were all writing back ha ha ha. This is life on the island. You'll get used to it, you'll love them. One evening, while my husband was out having drinks with his cousins enjoying a sunset over the Marmara Sea, neighbours could have seen a naked lady throwing pepper, throwing cinnamon, throwing vinegar, squirting peppermint oil mixed with water, with a water pistol at these seagulls to humanely ask them to leave.
Speaker 3:Where did you read that cinnamon was something that would scare seagulls away? The internet, of course I can tell there's just a hint of trauma in your voice. Okay, the stairs in my mother-in-law's apartment.
Speaker 2:I'm going to go anti-Semitic. Yeah, they were, because at least three people, all of them Jewish, have now fallen down the extremely slippery and acutely angled staircase in my mother-in-law's apartment, and one of those people was me and the other person was my two-year-old. I was holding her hand to make sure she got down the stairs safely. I slipped. I took her with me. It was not pretty.
Speaker 3:The piece you wrote highly recommend everyone. As you'd expect, very funny, unvarnished, but also written with quite a bit of pathos, because I got the sense, tammy, from your article of a Jewish community in Istanbul that has perhaps seen better days, that it is very much faded glory. Is that how it felt being there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's definitely how it felt. I also mentioned in the article that Yossi's aunt is the esteemed academic and author Karel Valanci Karel is how they pronounce it, but I always butcher it. I tried cornering her for some deep chats about anti-Semitism, anti-jewish racism, and we did get to speak for a little bit while the kids were around interjecting their unrelated questions, and she touched on the difference between Muslim antisemitism and Christian antisemitism and I invited her to come onto the show to talk to us in more depth and to provide more insight, and she's happy to do that. Perhaps next season more insight and she's happy to do that, perhaps next season.
Speaker 2:I spoke to one couple at the Jewish club in Bukhara and the gentleman in the couple believes in 10 years time there won't be any young Jewish families there. It will just be the older generations who stay behind. Not everyone I spoke to agreed with that, but certainly a lot of the younger generations are heading over to Israel, to the US and other parts of Europe Spain, portugal. A lot of the Turkish Jewish community have passports Portuguese and Spanish passports which they were able to get after they proved that their ancestors were kicked out of Spain during the Spanish Inquisition. A lot of the Turkish community consider themselves European, and some of them are quite patriotic, but patriotic to Ataturk's Republic, and many of them, including Yossi's male cousins, even did army service in Turkey, and so they kind of have this sense of well. We've been here for hundreds of years. Our family have been here, you know, since the Spanish Inquisition. Why should we move?
Speaker 3:Look, it's fascinating to get these insights into a country that I don't think many people, many Jewish people, probably even know that there is still a Jewish diaspora there. Probably surprised to learn that the Turkish Jewish community historically was actually quite large during the Ottoman Empire and that you know many prominent Turkish people in literature, in politics, in business are Jewish and this community is now I believe you were telling me, tammy approaching 10,000 or so, having-.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 12,000 they think it currently sits at and they predict that it will dwindle further.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so talking about a community really in decline, having been once a much larger, much more significant group in Turkey, albeit still always a minority. So thank you for bringing your personal experience and for giving us an insight into this Jewish community that many of us have no exposure to or insight into Just before we move on from Turkey. I'm curious were there any similarities or connections that you found with your own Jewish community, or is the context just so different that it really felt completely foreign?
Speaker 2:You know what I actually did. A lot of the Jews have their summer rentals on Bukhara, but some of them also have them on Burgaz, and Yossi's cousin and aunt, who's also a listener, shout out to you Terika. They have a house on Burgaz and it's a 30-minute ferry ride from one island to the other, and there's this great reluctance to go to the other island because it's such a schlep. It's 30 minutes away. And it just made me think about the Jews in Sydney who are in the east versus the north in St Ives, and that, oh, we have to go north and we have to go east. What would be the equivalent in Melbourne?
Speaker 3:Would it be Caulfield versus Fitzroy, or Well, no, it used to be Caulfield and Doncaster. The South African Jewish community was largely based in Doncaster and over time they've found their way over to the Bagel Belt. But for many years it was a real source of complaint that, yeah, you have to schlep about a half an hour drive or so. So, yeah, I can imagine that there's certainly a parallel there between our two communities here in Melbourne and Sydney. Well, it sounds like it was quite the adventure.
Speaker 2:I do want to say that I did really get so much nachos out of seeing my kids interact with their babane, their grandmother and the cousins and the aunts, but I've never been happier to return home to an Australian winter.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I can understand why it's good to have you back, Tammy.
Speaker 2:Thanks, dash, you too, I'm sorry, dad.
Speaker 1:Because they're singing to you.
Speaker 3:So, tammy, in episode one we do want to give everyone a bit of a heads up of what's coming ahead in season two, because we've been beavering away in the background coming up with all the ideas, all the guests. But before we give you a little tease of season two, I know you want to just cast your mind back to season one, don't you? You want to have just a little chat about the best bits that.
Speaker 2:I want to have a little celebration.
Speaker 3:You want to celebrate? Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I want to have a little.
Speaker 3:Acknowledgement A little simpa the fact that we got through season one, we put the thing to air. People listened and downloaded in numbers that we never anticipated, With feedback that I never expected, from all corners of the world, including Ibiza. Hello Ibiza. Yeah, love the pronunciation the world including Ibiza, hello Ibiza.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Love the pronunciation Ibiza.
Speaker 3:Ibiza. Very much looking forward to season three or season four whenever we can get over there for our live show with the Jewish community in Ibiza. But tell me what was on your mind when you were looking back over season one.
Speaker 2:I just thought that we should take some time to acknowledge some of the best bits, some of the nuggets that came out of season one, Catchphrases which people have been suggesting need to be on T-shirts. We need some merch.
Speaker 3:Tell me more. What did you or I say that is worth printing on some t-shirts?
Speaker 2:Our listeners loved the introduction to the word passive wear, which was coined by my journalist friend Marina. They loved Probo, which my funny friend Jess brought to the conversation when we were talking about Penny Wong. Probo, short for.
Speaker 3:Problematic.
Speaker 2:Yep, that's correct. They loved the idea of a poop and scroll. That one was born out of our conversation with Itai Flesher who-.
Speaker 3:Well, itai didn't say it, you owned up to the old poop and scroll.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I owned up to that. We were having a like, quite a meaningful conversation with Itai and I was like, yeah, I actually read these slides that you wrote while I was doing my daily poop and scroll. Everyone loved our Eurovision episode with our special guest, alon Amir, who brought this catchphrase to the table.
Speaker 3:Opinions are like buttholes Everyone has one.
Speaker 2:That's correct. Put that on a T-shirt. Then we had my assertion that everyone has a hot ancestor. Then suggested that everyone has a what ancestor?
Speaker 3:said, everyone has at least one jewish ancestor yeah, at least one closeted or out to all the non-jews out there listening you know you've got one, a great great grandmother, a great great grandfather. Someone out there in that family tree, you know, know, is if they're not part Jewish, they're therefore halachically Jewish.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Okay, In our episode with Itai about Haredim, he handed me the beautiful pop culture reference of Fifty Shades of Black and of course, of black. And of course some people would like a cap with the following statement embroidered trout mousse or crack. But possibly my best moment from season one was when we had Iran expert draw Daron into the studio. You were up from Melbourne, we were all there together, you had asked him a series of serious questions and then I took a risk, an improvisational risk, and I told him it would be journalistically irresponsible of me to not ask him what his favourite Shakira song was. And what did he say? Dash.
Speaker 3:Did he say Hips Don't Lie?
Speaker 2:No, no, he said I love all of them. I'm a big fan.
Speaker 3:That's right, yeah, and it was as if he could see the question coming a mile away, like he was. It was as if he'd been waiting for the whole interview for you to ask that question. It was brilliant. It was the power of the podcast, those moments when you just you don't expect your guests to roll with you in that way, but he did. I'd agree with all those. For my, one of my highlights was you asking essentially the most senior Jewish communal leader in this country about his makeup routine.
Speaker 3:His skincare routine, his skincare, asking him about his skincare routine. It was very funny. Everyone was in on the joke.
Speaker 2:You mean by the joke? You mean the irony of flipping the gender script.
Speaker 3:Correct, correct. But look, we did have some criticism sent our way about that interview. Some folks said that, look, you actually had an opportunity to ask some serious, thoughtful questions of the co-CEO of ECHA, the de facto head of the Australian Jewish community, and you spent most of the time talking about his good looks and his makeup routine and his biceps and what a lot missed and lost opportunities. So we hear those criticisms.
Speaker 2:That one criticism.
Speaker 3:Okay, well, look, I get that like. Not everyone would have appreciated the fact that the interview was, you know, a fair bit of it was in jest.
Speaker 2:In season one we even inspired a listener to become a first time contributor to the Jewish Independent, and that was Jesse Balker. I hope I'm pronouncing your surname correctly.
Speaker 3:Just Jess in Perth.
Speaker 2:Jess Balker in Perth and we'll include a link to Jess's very relatable article in our show notes.
Speaker 3:Tammy yes, your prayers have finally been answered. We have an episode sponsor.
Speaker 2:No way.
Speaker 3:We do. Have you heard of the Jewish Climate Network?
Speaker 2:Look, I know this is off-brand for me, but I actually have heard of them. They are the Jewish Community's Climate Action Organisation.
Speaker 3:Correct, tammy. Yes, the Jewish Climate Network are an organisation that do really vital work equipping the Jewish community to be the outstanding climate leaders that we know that they can be. They've been around since 2019, I believe, and they're now growing, as I guess, the climate crisis is growing in the background, in the backdrop of everything, and so they're looking for a head of communications and media.
Speaker 2:Tell me more.
Speaker 3:They're looking for someone with a strong background in either media journalism, digital media or communications. Someone with a demonstrated history of finding compelling human interest stories that inspire the Jewish community and the broader Australian community to lift our ambition on climate change issues.
Speaker 2:That sounds great. So should we be encouraging our Comsy listeners out there, who are just not feeling it anymore, to say farewell to their current dull job for this one?
Speaker 3:100% Tammy. The next six years are scientifically so I just learned. Our last chance this century to make an impact on the issue of climate.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah bro.
Speaker 3:I know it's big, isn't it? So I say, make the next six years count. And what I do know from firsthand experience is that the JCN team are a brilliant, passionate and dynamic group of humans working in this space. So, whether this role is for you or you know someone who would be the perfect fit, head to their website, wwwjcnorgau. Follow the link on the homepage for the full job description and how to apply. Applications close 15th of August.
Speaker 2:TGI takes no legal responsibility for this career information. Please obtain personal advice. Okay Dash, you've been excited to look ahead to season two. What do we have in store for our listeners?
Speaker 3:We begin season two with festival season beginning with the Festival of Dangerous Ideas which is coming up in Sydney, and I am thrilled to preview the fact that we will have the UK's own David Baddiel on A Shame to Admit, because he's coming to Sydney for the Festival of Dangerous Ideas.
Speaker 2:Amazing.
Speaker 3:The Jewish literary festivals in Sydney and Melbourne will also be happening, including appearances from our own Tammy Swissman in Melbourne and Sydney as well. Yeah, and the worldwide religious Jewish festivals? I've never heard of these. Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur You've just dropped that into the script, so For someone who's never heard of them.
Speaker 2:You can pronounce them pretty well.
Speaker 3:They are coming up as well in Season 2, in case you'd forgotten.
Speaker 2:And we're on Spilkers to be talking to Alice Zaslavsky right before Rosh Hashanah. We'll be chatting all things, emotional eating.
Speaker 3:And, of course, the US presidential elections. Which way will it go? Who is good for the Jews, Donald Trump or Kamala Harris? We can have that conversation in a couple of weeks' time.
Speaker 2:And Dash. I believe you're bringing in a big dog from the US to help you answer those questions.
Speaker 3:Peter Savodnik, senior editor from the Free Press, will be joining us for that conversation very soon, so that's just a taste of what's coming up.
Speaker 2:Hopefully we'll even be interviewing a Jewish, Aussie Olympian.
Speaker 3:I would love it if we can.
Speaker 2:Just putting it out there. Maybe if we just say it on the podcast it'll help our chances of getting one.
Speaker 3:Totally, totally. Do you believe in manifestations? It's a big question.
Speaker 2:It's a huge question. Do I believe in it? Yeah, I do believe in it when things go my way, and then I don't believe in it when I've been manifesting and it doesn't go my way. Make sense.
Speaker 3:Okay, so not necessarily saying that we're manifesting, but we will gladly talk with any number of the terrific young Australian Jewish athletes that have featured at the Paris Olympics. Australian.
Speaker 2:Jewish athletes that have featured at the Paris Olympics. Perhaps Jemima Montag from Melbourne, who received the bronze medal in the 20 kilometre race walk and made some really moving comments about her grandmother's escape from Auschwitz and how that inspired her to keep going during her race. Or Jess Fox from Sydney.
Speaker 3:And massive shout out to Jess Fox for two gold medals. Her flying the flag for Australia at the ceremony was another very special moment in the Games. In addition to winning the golds representing Australia in the opening ceremony, winning the golds representing Australia in the opening ceremony, she's had to deal with some absolutely vile trolling and anti-Semitism online, and you wouldn't know it because she is someone that is so positive and so upbeat and so resilient in the face of all the challenges that she's had. And, yeah, she's amazing. She deserves another gold medal for that as well.
Speaker 2:Someone else who deserves a gold medal is Barbara Butch, the fat queer Jewish Olympics opener icon. I was absolutely thrilled to see her inclusion in the opening ceremony, which I did not watch live and, I will admit, I have not watched in its entirety. I was so excited to see an article about Barbara Butch on TJI's website. For listeners who want to know more, a link will be in the show notes.
Speaker 3:And if you've got a guest that you'd love to hear from, no matter who they are or where they are in the world, let us know. You can email ashame at thejewishindependentcomau.
Speaker 2:And if they are one of your WhatsApp contacts, even better that's it for episode one of season two of Ashame.
Speaker 3:to Admit, with Tammy Sussman and me, dash Lawrence, this is a TJI podcast.
Speaker 2:Today's episode was mixed and edited by Nick King, with music by Donovan Jenks.
Speaker 3:Special appearance from my son, Solomon. Links to the TJI articles mentioned today are in the show notes.
Speaker 2:If you like the podcast, please leave a positive review. It doesn't take long and, as usual, tell your friends, all of them.
Speaker 3:You can have a quill or kvetch via the contact form on the Jewish Independent website or by email ashamed at the jewishindependentcomau. And if you'd like to be an episode sponsor, just like our friends at the Jewish Climate Network, you can email at the same address.
Speaker 2:As always. Thank you so much for your support and look out for us next Tuesday. Thank you.