Ashamed to Admit
Are you ashamed to admit you're not across the big issues and events affecting Jews in Australia, Israel and around the Jewish world?
In this new podcast from online publication The Jewish Independent, Your Third Cousin Tami Sussman and TJI's Dashiel Lawrence tackle the week's 'Chewiest and Jewiest' topics.
Ashamed to Admit
Episode #12 The bad man's assassination with Kylie Moore-Gilbert
In their second episode for Season 2, Tami asks esteemed academic, author and political scientist Kylie Moore-Gilbert to pretend to be her bat mitzvah teacher and explain Ismail Haniyeh’s assassination. “Like, who was the bad man and what’s going to happen now?” etc. Plus Dash learns how to pronounce Aussie-Jewish Olympian Noémie Fox’s name.
TJI articles relevant to this week’s episode:
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/noemie-fox-wins-kayak-gold-medal-jess-jumps-in-to-celebrate
JCN Job:
Kylie Moore-Gilbert’s Book:
https://ultimopress.com.au/products/the-uncaged-sky
Email your feedback, questions, show ideas etc: ashamed@thejewishindependent.com.au
(You can also email voice memos here)
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Before we start, I don't know how to properly pronounce Noemi Fox's name.
Speaker 2:Noemi.
Speaker 1:It is Noemi.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Thank you for clarifying that, because part of me just didn't want to talk about it today because I didn't know what the correct pronunciation of it was.
Speaker 2:It's French.
Speaker 1:Noemi, noemi, noemi. Okay, how did she get the nice French name with the accent? And Jess just got Jessica.
Speaker 2:Are you ashamed to admit that you're not across some of the issues affecting Jews in Australia, the Middle East and the world at large? I'm Tammy Sussman and in this podcast series I ask journalist, historian and TJI's executive director, dr Dashiell Lawrence, all those ignorant questions that I and I reckon you are too embarrassed to ask.
Speaker 1:I'm Dash Lawrence and I'm going to attempt to answer most of Tammy's questions. Sometimes I might have to bring in an expert and sometimes I'll have a few questions of my own.
Speaker 2:But together, dash and I, are going to try to an expert and sometimes I'll have a few questions of my own, but together, dash and I, are going to try to cut through the weeks or the months, chewiest and jewiest topics.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the Jewish Independent Podcast. A Shame to Admit. Hello Melbourne, hello Sydney, Canberra, Cairns, Alice Springs and hello to our one and only listener in Wakayama, Japan. This is episode 12 of season 2. A shame to admit, I'm Dash Lawrence from the Jewish Independent.
Speaker 2:And I'm eating an apple. I'm Tammy Sussman. We are recording on Thursday, august 8th. Today is Roger Federer's birthday. Roger Federer, of course, the Swiss professional tennis player who I've only recently learnt, is not the same person as Rafael Nadal, the Spanish tennis player with an alleged Jewish ancestor. Neither is he the same person as Andre Agassi, whose father is an Armenian born in Iran.
Speaker 1:Correct. How did you get the three mixed up?
Speaker 2:I don't know. I just like I know we're going to lose a few listeners. Now, I'm not a big tennis fan and I just like hear those exotic names, and I always just like blend those three into one, even though I've now learnt that Andre Agassi is like 20 years older.
Speaker 1:Yeah, retired a long time ago Than.
Speaker 2:Rafael Nadal, like I know that there's a Serbian one who does really well, who was an anti-vaxxer. Is that Djokovic?
Speaker 1:Correct.
Speaker 2:Yes, okay. And then I obviously know about Leighton Hewitt only because he married Beck from Home and Away. But the other three, they confuse me.
Speaker 1:Why are we talking about tennis? It's not even tennis season. We should be talking about the Olympics.
Speaker 2:They play tennis in the Olympics.
Speaker 1:Yes, and in fact Djokovic did win gold medal a few days ago, did he? Maybe that's why it's front of mind for you, yeah.
Speaker 2:No, it's front of mind, because I was trying to find like a way to combine sports and Iran. I think I did a really great job. I even threw in a potential Jewish ancestor for you, thank you. The reason I mention Iran or Iran is because we're focusing our attention to the Middle East in this week's episode, especially Iran.
Speaker 1:With very good reason, tammy, you're ashamed to admit that you didn't know much about the recent assassination of Ismail Haniyeh. You wanted to know more, as did I, as did, I'm sure, a lot of our listeners, as some people have been speculating the case that Iran is increasingly circling around Israel through the form of its proxies and going to begin what could be a much larger scale regional conflict. So we called in an expert, someone who has come to know Iran very well in recent years. That's Kylie Moore Gilbert, who, in more recent years, has become a commentator and expert on Iranian politics. She's an academic in Middle Eastern political science and is currently a research fellow at Macquarie University's Department of Security Studies and Criminology. And we'll get to that interview very shortly. But first, tammy, we need to celebrate some more Aussie Jewish gold.
Speaker 2:We definitely do.
Speaker 1:Coming out of the Olympics. Last week we were a little bit premature in celebrating and acknowledging and doffing our cap to Jess Fox and Jemima Montag. We just assumed that that was going to be the end of the Aussie Jewish Olympic story. But the golden story has continued. Earlier this week, jess's younger sister, naomi noemi noemi. Thank you, apologies for the uh poor pronunciation there.
Speaker 1:27 year old kayaker won gold in the kayak cross and if you haven't had a chance to catch the beautiful emotional scenes after she won that gold, highly encourage you to do it. Sister Jess jumped in the water to celebrate her younger sister winning gold.
Speaker 2:Hang on, is she allowed to do that?
Speaker 1:Is she allowed to dive into the water?
Speaker 2:Yeah, like, are people allowed to jump in, can't they get disqualified? Didn't that once happen, with the swim team getting disqualified because everyone jumped in to celebrate?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the issue was that the swim was actually still going on, or at least there were some swimmers that hadn't finished their lap, so that's where the disqualification came from, but I'm pretty sure Jess Fox can do whatever she likes. But, I don't think that she was breaking any rules there. It was a wonderful moment. And then we also saw a very moving interview with a sweaty, emotional judo dude.
Speaker 3:Yeah, this is like the one part of the.
Speaker 1:Olympics that you've managed to catch, besides the Fox sisters.
Speaker 2:I didn't even catch the Fox sisters.
Speaker 1:No, please.
Speaker 2:As our listeners can probably tell, I'm not a sporty person. Even the fact that I say sporty, like who says that? Haven't said that since the 90s. Yeah, I haven't really been following the Olympics, but a lot of people were discussing the beautiful interview with the sweaty, emotional judo dude. He's Israeli and he I'm not sure if he even won. Maybe he came second or I should look this up. That's just been overshadowed by his beautiful speech that he made to the media. He's hugging his coach and I believe that he dedicates his medal to the coach's son, who lost his life in.
Speaker 1:Gaza. So there were two medalists. There was Inbar Lanier.
Speaker 2:I'm googling sweaty, emotional judo dude.
Speaker 1:God, there was also Raz Hershko secured Israel's second silver medal in the Olympics. What is it with the Israelis and judo? I suppose they-.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's because it's called ju-do Very good, very good. They always do very well in martial arts, so nothing's come up for sweaty, emotional, sweaty judo dude.
Speaker 1:I mean there was also the story of the Iranian judo car, and that's what they're called, if they're a judo dude. I mean there was also the story of the iranian judoka who and that's what they're called if they're a judo athlete and what do they call?
Speaker 2:them a judoka judoka like judeica, come on no judoka.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I'm saying yeah like basically the same word uh, except it's it's I think it's a japanese word anyway.
Speaker 2:Anyway, no, hang on, I found it. Congratulations, judo champion Peter Pulcik.
Speaker 2:Oh, it is Peter Pulcik Clinched the bronze medal dedicating his triumph to his coach's fallen son, omer yeah, who lost his life in Gaza, which is just a reminder of the extra weight of grief and turmoil that many Olympians not just Jewish Olympians are carrying right now, even during moments of immense celebration. That's me stomping on a glass and back to Australia for a minute. I just checked my family whatsapp group and it appears that my third cousin's third cousin, sienna Green, who is Jewish. According to Wikipedia from Sydney, she'll be competing for gold with the Aussie water polo team shortly. We'll have the results of that before this ep comes out. So if anyone has a direct line to Jess or Noemi Fox, jemima Montag, sienna Green or Emotional Sweaty Judo Dude, please let them know. We'd love to interview them on the show.
Speaker 1:Tammy, your prayers have finally been answered. We have an episode sponsor, we do, we do. Have you heard of the Jewish Climate Network?
Speaker 2:You know what I know? This is off-brand for me, but I actually have heard of them. They are the Jewish Community's Climate Action Organisation, is that right?
Speaker 1:Correct Tammy. The Jewish Climate Network are an organisation doing vital work equipping the Australian Jewish community to be the outstanding climate leaders we know they can be. Jcn have been around since around 2019, steadily growing, and now they're looking for a head of communications and media.
Speaker 2:Ooh, spill the brine.
Speaker 1:They're looking for someone with a strong background in media, journalism, digital media or communications, someone with a demonstrated history of finding compelling human interest stories that can inspire the Jewish community and the broader Australian society to lift our ambition on climate change issues.
Speaker 2:That sounds really, really great. So should we be encouraging Comsy listeners out there, who are just not feeling it anymore, to say farewell to their current dull job for this one?
Speaker 1:100% Tammy. The next six years are, scientifically, our last chance this century to make an impact on this issue. So I say, make the next six years count. And what I do know from firsthand experience is that the JCN team are a brilliant, passionate and dynamic group of human beings doing work in this space. So, whether this role is for you or you know someone in the Jewish community or outside the Jewish community who would be the perfect fit for this role, head to their website, wwwjcnorgau, and follow the link on the homepage for the full job description and how to apply. Applications close 15th of August. Time is running out, so get onto it soon.
Speaker 2:TJI takes no legal responsibility for this career information. Please obtain personal advice.
Speaker 1:Tammy, it's time for your interview with Kylie Moore Gilbert.
Speaker 2:It is. It's time for my interview with Kylie Moore Gilbert. Why weren't you there, Dash?
Speaker 1:Do you want the honest answer?
Speaker 2:I do want the real answer, but can I guess?
Speaker 1:Go on.
Speaker 2:I reckon you weren't actually at a Jewish independent meeting. I reckon you were at a meeting with your plumber discussing the bidet instalment in your new ensuite bathroom.
Speaker 1:Doing a tour of the bidet showroom to get the full array of options in front of me.
Speaker 2:Oh, la-di-da, do they let you try them out in the showroom?
Speaker 1:I don't know. I have no interest in having a bidet, so I left that one to Susie. I'm not someone that would ever push to have a bidet installed and I'm certainly not someone that would take time out of my day to go and try on bidets.
Speaker 2:Okay, it's fine.
Speaker 1:Look, I was brokering a new sponsor for this program because it's not cheap to get you tammy suessman, comedian, author, wedding celebrant, raconteur on this program.
Speaker 2:I've got to try and bring the money in somehow okay, it's really awkward because I was going to ask you for more money this week. Poor Dash is so stressed this week and he's got a flight to catch and he has to put up with me, all right. Well, a lot of people describe you and I, as you know, tammy. She's on this podcast and she's like funny and a bit of a loose cannon. And then there's Dash Lawrence, who like legitimizes the show, so I was really nervous to interview a big deal on my own. Something for you to know and for our listeners to know is I asked Kylie to explain the situation in Iran and the Middle East as if she was my bat mitzvah teacher. I literally use those words.
Speaker 1:Kylie Moore Gilbert is an Australian British academic in Middle Eastern political science and is currently a research fellow at Macquarie University's Department of Security Studies and Criminology. Kylie is also the author of the Uncaged Sky my 804 Days in an Iranian Prison, and was even recently the subject of an Archibald Prize portrait this year.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for coming on this little show. I know that you're a big deal, so to come on to our humble little podcast, which is going to be huge in a few years, it means a lot to us. So thank you for joining us. It's honestly a pleasure, okay, thank you for joining us. It's honestly a pleasure, okay. So Dash, rewrote this question because my question was a very bad man died two weeks ago. Who was he and why was he assassinated? But Dash, rewrote the question to since Ismail Haniyeh was assassinated a fortnight ago, all eyes have been on Israel, but you wrote a piece for Foreign Policy and in that piece you've asked whether Iranians also had involvement in his death. Why did you pose that question?
Speaker 3:The nature of Ismail Haniyeh's assassination was something out of a spy thriller. Nobody could really believe it had happened on the day that it had happened and in the place in which it happened. Obviously, israel's been trying to hunt this guy down and pop him off for some time. They've tried years ago and since October 7, they've made it very clear that all of the leaders of Hamas, their days are numbered as far as they're concerned.
Speaker 3:But in the center of Tehran on the day that the president of Iran was being inaugurated was a really, really big deal and really brazen and really sort of high risk. So immediately your mind goes to well, how on earth did anyone pull this off? And I think it's pretty clear it was an inside job. There's no way in which a missile launched from Tel Aviv would have made its way across the Middle East and landed in Tehran just through the window of this guy, where he was sleeping, and just sort of miraculously killed him. To me it was a highly sophisticated operation and probably the only people who would have had access to this guy or his compound were insiders within the Iranian regime.
Speaker 2:Okay. So when you say within the Iranian regime, you don't mean the IRGC, do you? I think?
Speaker 3:it's very likely that it was IRGC Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps. There's a particular unit called Ansar al-Mahdi which is the protection squad for foreign dignitaries or other high interest people in the regime or from abroad that the regime might want to protect, like Haniyeh, and media reports investigating this since have suggested that it was most likely somebody from that particular unit of the IRGC that may have planted this bomb months ago inside the bedroom that Haniyeh would be sleeping in, knowing that Haniyeh and other senior terrorist proxies, not just Palestinians but from other parts of the Middle East, would use this compound from time to time when they visited their masters in Tehran, and that perhaps it was triggered remotely from abroad. But an insider who had been co-opted flipped was likely the person who planted that bomb.
Speaker 2:Okay, so many people wouldn't be aware that, as you write, a surprising number of ordinary Iranians inside the country and within the sizable diaspora abroad have taken pro-Israel positions both on social media and during demonstrations in Western countries. So are you able to tell me a bit more about this movement of people or how widespread it is?
Speaker 3:That's a really good question. It's difficult to know how widespread any political opinions held in Iran are, simply because the information environment is so constrained. I mean, you can't do polling of the population very easily, certainly not from within the country. This is a totalitarian regime. State media is the only media it's impossible to really know what people think. That being said, there's been a lot of interesting trends on social media and even on the streets inside Iran. I feel like, particularly in the past decade, people's bravery in speaking out and speaking up against this regime has really become magnified. From the 2009 Green Movement, let's say onwards, people have been speaking up much more than they used to, fully being aware of the consequences if they get caught or arrested in that case.
Speaker 2:Okay, you mentioned the 2009 Green Movement. Can you just remind our listeners what that is or was?
Speaker 3:Sure.
Speaker 3:So the very first mass popular uprising against the Iranian regime sort of since the Iranian revolution in 1979,.
Speaker 3:It happened in 2009, when the presidential elections were seen to have been stolen, even though they're very managed elections and only a small number of regime people that are vetted and cleared by the Supreme Leader are allowed to stand at all.
Speaker 3:It was viewed by the population to have been stolen and their candidate was not announced as the winner, and so they took to the streets and it became a mass movement with people calling for the downfall of the regime, and this sort of really, I guess, unleashed the floodgates in Iran. And then we've seen subsequent movements in 2019 and then 2022, with the Women Life Freedom Movement. That was the biggest and the most close to a revolution that the country's seen since 79. So, yeah, I guess my point is, while it's really difficult to gauge what people think in Iran, as we can see from watching what's happening on the streets and also on social media, there's a huge amount of disaffection for this regime, there's a huge amount of hatred and also fear of this regime and, interestingly, particularly after October 7, you've seen people who are anti-regime in Iran aligning themselves with Israel out of a kind of a my enemy's enemy is my friend ethos.
Speaker 2:Would that be someone like Elika Le Bon?
Speaker 3:So she's a social media influencer, I think, based in LA, of Iranian background. But the Iranian diaspora outside the country has been very vocal and she's one of them against this regime for a really long time because they have freedom of speech and often they've run away from Iran because of being persecuted there or imprisoned there, and so they've been very active. But inside Iran it's obviously much riskier to be anti-regime and certainly very risky to make any statement in support of Israel when you face incarceration or torture or whatever as a consequence.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm still, ashamed to admit, I can't quite get my head around when you say the regime around. When you say the regime, is that the Iranian government or is that the IRGC, which I understand is kind of part of the government, but not? What do you mean? When you say the regime?
Speaker 3:That's a really good question. So I guess the word regime has two purposes here. One is that you're right, it's broader than just the government. It's all of the apparatus of the state. So yes, the IRGC are kind of a semi-government actor. They kind of act with impunity, they don't really abide by the rules of the government and they're not under the control of the government. They answer just directly to the supreme leader, who's kind of the dictator of the country. They answer just directly to the supreme leader who's kind of the dictator of the country.
Speaker 3:But the whole government structure, the different ministries, for example the parliament of iran, they don't have any control over the irgc. You know they do other things. The irgc does what it wants. So I guess it's a regime is a broad term that encompasses all those different wings of the state. The government's one of them, but the supreme leader in his office is another, and then the IRGC is another, and then the military could even be a fourth. But then I guess also the term regime's kind of pejorative, so government's kind of a neutral word.
Speaker 3:But if you're against the Iranian government then you might call them a regime, to emphasize that they're authoritarian and not representing the people of Iran necessarily.
Speaker 2:Understood. And when you say impunity, to me the word impunity means like no consequences.
Speaker 3:Basically, the law doesn't apply to them and they make up their own laws. The IRGC in Iran has its own court system, so it has its own judges and its own rules around how someone is convicted, for example. So there are two parallel justice systems in Iran, one run by the Ministry of Justice and one run by the IRGC oh my goodness. And they kind of operate outside of the law.
Speaker 2:So Ismail Haniyeh was he. This is. I'm so embarrassed that I'm asking this. No, no, ask anything.
Speaker 3:No, he's a Palestinian from Gaza.
Speaker 2:Okay, so he's a Palestinian from Gaza, but he doesn't live in Gaza. He lived in Qatar, that's right, and you've written that it was rumoured that he lived like a lavish lifestyle. Why is it only rumoured? How come we can't say he definitively lived?
Speaker 3:I think we can pretty much say he lived a lavish lifestyle. I mean it's difficult when you don't have evidence. Perhaps I'm sure others do. I mean I haven't looked into it extensively. I've personally seen pictures on social media of his son, for example, hanging out in Doha in sort of opulent five-star looking. You know everything gold-plated, you know furnishings and you know huge cars and things. I mean he's said to have laundered a significant amount of money out of Gaza, probably from various aid programs, including funds given by Qatar itself to the Palestinians, taken his cut and laundered that money out of Gaza to enrich himself personally and his family.
Speaker 2:And this is why I'm so confused when, in the days after his assassination, I saw so many social media posts from people even in Australia saying that it was such a huge loss because he was in ceasefire talks and he was like a key player in ending this war. Where did those posts come from?
Speaker 3:I think, like anything, there's a gray area there and there's a kernel of truth to some of it. I do not think that this is a peaceful person who wanted to end the war and gives a damn at all about the Palestinian people's suffering. This is somebody who had a hand in starting the war in the first place, who had a hand in October 7 and who was the leader of the organization that was the perpetrator of this horrific atrocity that saw 1,200 Israelis, innocent people, slaughtered. So I don't think this is a peacemaker in any sense of the word. Quite the opposite.
Speaker 3:There has been, though, some interesting analysis saying that, within any organisation, including terror organisations, you have more pragmatic, more kind of I guess, realistic people who are playing the politics as well, and then you have the extreme, you know, people with bloodlust and a thirst for just mass atrocity, which and that's a spectrum and they're all horrific terrorists. But I guess the point is that Haniya, given that he lived outside of Gaza and he perhaps, you know, living this opulent lifestyle, wasn't keen to have it all blow up in his face, to use a terrible pun, given the manner of his killing, and so he was a little bit more pragmatic in that sense than Yahya Sinwar, who's the leader inside Gaza, the one who was directly responsible for planning October 7, and has now been announced as the new leader of the whole thing of all of Hamas.
Speaker 3:And he seemed to be this kind of like I guess pathologically like bloodthirsty, tyrannical kind of crazy person you know, so it's a spectrum, I guess, but I don't think by any means Haniyeh can be characterized as a peacemaker or that it is any great loss to humanity that he's no longer with us.
Speaker 2:Okay, dash had a question about President Masoud Pazeshkian. Can you say it for me please Pazeshkian, pazeshkian. Masoud Pazeshkian, who is the new Iranian president, dash tells me, is a cardiac surgeon and regarded by many as a moderate or a reformist politician in inverted commas. So Dash really wanted you to tell us more about him, what his relationship is like with the IRGC and what are the possible consequences of his elections.
Speaker 3:So there's two schools of thought on Pazeshkian and they kind of more broadly aligned with your perspective on Iran policy if you're coming from a Western country. So the people who are more dovish on Iran, who believe that engaging Iran is a way to moderate them and bring them out of international isolation, to moderate them and bring them out of international isolation, so the people who did the nuclear deal with Iran, for example, and were in favor of that kind of collaboration, they would tell you that Pazeshkian is a reformist, he is a moderate when it comes to the spectrum of different views inside the regime and we should engage with him because he could have a moderating influence on Iran's policies more broadly. But the other school of thought, which is more aligned with what I think personally, is that the idea of reformists and conservatives this dichotomy that's often been cited by analysts within the regime is not really relevant anymore, that the whole thing is being taken over by hardliners anyway, and the IRGC among them. And Pazeshkian's not actually a reformer at all and even if he was, he has no influence anyway because all the power is centralized in the Ayatollah's hands, ayatollah Khamenei, the Supreme Leader, and he's just there to do his bidding anyway. So that would be my view.
Speaker 3:I wouldn't hold out much hope that Pazeshkian will change anything. I think he tried to run for election in 2021 and wasn't allowed, so that the hardliners prevented him from even getting permission to stand for election. The fact that he was allowed this time and that he actually won, I think signals that the Ayatollah Khamenei wants to sort of put a kind of a fig leaf sort of signal out there to the West particularly if Trump is re-elected I think they're a bit nervous about that that Iran is willing to engage and maybe go back to the nuclear deal. But it's a signaling thing from the Ayatollah rather than any meaningful shift, I think, within Iran.
Speaker 2:So, with Hezbollah in Lebanon, Hamas and Islamic Jihad in Gaza, the Houthis in Yemen and smaller militias operating in Iraq and Syria, it would seem that Iran's strategy all along has either been to lead Israel into a large-scale regional war via Iran's proxies. Dash wants to know if that strategy is about to be achieved in your opinion.
Speaker 3:It's really difficult to predict the future. I know things are on a knife edge right now when we're recording this podcast, so I don't want to say things that are going to make me sound like a right now when we're recording this podcast. So I don't want to say things that are going to make me sound like a sort of bumbling fool should events change in the next day or two. But my personal reading on what Iran's strategy is that they do not want a regional war involving Iran. They would love to see a regional war involving Israel, but they do not directly want to be party to it. They want to keep their hands clean and they want others to do their dirty work for them, and that's a strategy that's always worked for them.
Speaker 3:All of these proxies that are encircling Israel that have been funded and trained and, you know, not necessarily established by Iran, but definitely grown into a fighting force by Iran and Iranians, I think, themselves on the streets at least. They don't want open conflict with anyone, certainly not Israel or the West. The regime really has to make a decision. It's a very dangerous game that it's playing right now. I personally think that they're rational. They have so many problems at home, economically, socially. They are not going problems at home, economically, socially. They are not going to get into a direct military conflict with Israel, but they probably will send some sort of strong military signal in the coming days because of the assassination of Haniyat, to show Israel that they're not going to take that lying down and there will be consequences. But I don't see a regional war necessarily erupting as a result.
Speaker 2:I think there's this anxiety that I'm feeling right now personally, but also from our community, especially since ASIO raised its level of threat from probable to possible, from probable to possible. The Australian Jewish community also carries that anxiety on behalf of their family and friends in Israel as well. How do you hold that fear and anxiety and carry on?
Speaker 3:I mean all I can say is I think that we have no choice but to carry on with our lives, and if we allow fears of terror attacks or of being targeted to impact us too much, then they win. And you know, it's actually scary too because of the foreign interference stuff in Australia. You know there's a lot of media reporting now and a lot of attention also being given to the presence of foreign actors, from Iran included, that are in Australia, that are interfering with our democracy, interfering with local communities and community cohesion here too, and it's really, you know, it's really scary, but I guess we've just got to soldier on.
Speaker 2:I have remembered something I saw in your article for foreign policy, the main image, which is it's a Getty image, but it's the billboard that shows the picture of Hamas political leader in Tehran. Does that have a Hebrew lettering on it as well?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it does. I noticed that as well. It seems to have been a huge kind of poster put up down the side of a building in Tehran, probably the day after he was killed. I mean it was very fresh. I mean it's a propaganda image. It's obviously got the Dome of the Rock behind it and it's Haniya with Hebrew. Let me pull it up. Does it say khule onesh kharif? Like onesh kharif is like a severe punishment, Dar entazar mujazat saqta boshi, in Farsi, so of the expectation of tough or difficult punishment, which, like my translation is not very good. But basically it says in Farsi and in Hebrew like expect a harsh response or harsh punishment. But it's interesting they put it in Hebrew.
Speaker 2:Carly, how many languages do you speak?
Speaker 3:Oh look, I speak Hebrew and Farsi and a bit of Arabic and English. And English yeah, but not fluently. It's embarrassing actually the extent to which my languages have downgraded these past few years.
Speaker 2:Okay, so you're ashamed to admit that you only speak four languages, and that three of them? You're losing some of your words because you're not practicing them. Is that what you're ashamed to admit today?
Speaker 3:Yes, they should be better. That's what I feel.
Speaker 2:How long did you learn Hebrew?
Speaker 3:for, oh, I did. My bachelor degree is in Middle Eastern Studies, so I studied Hebrew and Arabic for four years, for four years.
Speaker 2:Okay, I learned Hebrew for 10 years and I couldn't read that.
Speaker 3:I lived in Israel for a year too, so my Hebrew was very good by the end of that.
Speaker 2:Would be journalistically irresponsible of me to not ask you who your favorite Iranian hip-hop artist is.
Speaker 3:Well, I have to say Tumaj Salehi.
Speaker 2:I love that you didn't miss a beat. Why, tumaj?
Speaker 3:Because Tumaj is one of the figureheads of the Women Life Freedom movement in Iran. He had a death sentence given to him by the regime for his rap music, which was recently downgraded by the Supreme Court, and he's had new charges and he's now back having a retrial. But his music is not only is it good music, but it's very, very political and very brave and for that reason he's widely admired by the Iranian people.
Speaker 2:Is it unusual that the figurehead of the women's liberation in Iran is a man? He's one of the One of he's not the only one.
Speaker 3:Okay, actually, there are a lot of prominent female. You could call them martyrs, because many of them were killed during this uprising, and obviously it started with the death of a woman, mahsa Amini, who was killed by the morality police for not wearing the hijab correctly, and so she is the figurehead, mahsa Amini, of the Women's Life Freedom Movement, because it was her death that triggered it. But there are several very high-profile people who've either been killed by the regime for protesting, some as young as 16 years old girls who are very, very well known for resisting and actually losing their lives as a result. But also men and I think it's significant because it's a movement that's called Woman Life Freedom that's calling for gender equality. So to have Iranian men, who have normally not been a bastion of gender equality, actually stand up and support that and sometimes give their lives also or be willing to go to prison and be tortured in the name of that, is actually significant.
Speaker 2:You're absolutely right. That was meant to be a lighthearted question and it ended up taking quite a dark turn, but then you flipped it, Kylie, well done, and now it's inspirational.
Speaker 3:You're psychoanalyzing me. I don't know. None of that was intentional. No, I wasn't psychoanalyzing.
Speaker 2:I was admiring the way that you spun that around so that, spun that around so that, yeah, you know we can uplift our listeners. You're an optimist. Thank you so much for joining us today. Really, really grateful. It's very generous of you.
Speaker 3:And we hope to maybe have you back one day. Absolutely as you said, this is only the beginning. So when you get to season number 25, we can have like a best of season and you can invite me back. Thank you for believing in us Wholeheartedly and thank you for inviting me on. It's a real honour.
Speaker 1:That's it for Episode 12, our second episode for Season 2 of A Shame to Admit, with Tami Sussman and me, dash Lawrence. This is a TJR podcast.
Speaker 2:Today's episode was mixed and edited by Nick King, with music by Donovan Donnie Jenks.
Speaker 1:Links to the TJR articles relevant to today's chat are in the show notes.
Speaker 2:If you like the podcast, please leave a positive review. Someone noticed that on Spotify we only have a rating of 4.9. What does that mean?
Speaker 1:Someone came in with a one star, probably racist against Jews. You can have a quill or quetch via the contact form on the Jewish Independent website or email ashamed at the jewishindependentcomau. And if you'd like to be an episode sponsor, just like our friends at the Jewish Climate Network, get in touch there as well.
Speaker 2:As always. Thank you listeners so much for your support and please add us to your podcast queue next Tuesday. Thank you,