Ashamed to Admit
It's everything you didn't get in Jewish Studies class and a lot you probably didn't know you needed.
Ashamed to Admit is the podcast for anyone who's ever nodded along in a conversation about Jewish history, culture, or current events while internally panicking.
Hosted by comedians Tami Sussman and Shoshana Gottlieb, each episode breaks down the big, chewy, occasionally ridiculous questions of Jewish life, identity and community, with warmth, wit, and zero judgment.
From ancient texts to antisemitism to whether you can use a vibrator on Shabbat, nothing is off limits.
Funny, irreverent, and genuinely educational. You don't have to be Jewish to love it. But it helps to have a sense of humour.
Ashamed to Admit
Episode #21 Paranoid and Petty with John Safran
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John Safran graces the ATA studio this week to talk about the time he squatted in Kanye (Ye) West’s mansion in Hollywood, Jewish paranoia and petty family dynamics.
John’s new book is called “SQUAT - A week squatting at Kanye’s mansion”
Squat by John Safran - Penguin Books Australia
Articles adjacent to this episode:
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/christopher-columbus-was-genetically-jewish-new-dna-study-says
Special thanks to Diana Perla and Associates for their support: dianaperla.com.au
Email your feedback, questions, show ideas etc: ashamed@thejewishindependent.com.au
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Exploring Jewish Identity and Controversial Figures
Speaker 1Are you interested in issues affecting Jews in Australia and the world at large ? But a little bit ashamed that you're barely keeping up to date .
Speaker 2Well , you've come to the right place . I'm Tammy Sussman and , in this podcast series , author , historian and TJI's executive director , dashiell Lawrence , and I call on experts and each other to address all the ignorant questions that you might be too ashamed to ask .
Speaker 1Join us as we have a go at cutting through some seriously chewy and dewy topics .
Speaker 2Welcome to the Jewish Independent Podcast . Ashamed to Admit .
Speaker 1Hello everyone . I'm Dash Lawrence from the Jewish Independent .
Speaker 2Y me llamo Tammy Sussman . Soy australiana . A mí me gusta bailar y pintar y leer libros .
Speaker 1Muy bien , ¿tú hablas español .
Speaker 2Mi español es muy malo . It's very bad . That's pretty much all .
Speaker 2I've got , I've got that I can say my phone number and I can swear I can say some really terrible things in Mexican Spanish . But the reason I'm speaking Spanish , dash , is because Spanish has been on my mind this week , and it started when I received a little article in my family WhatsApp group , and I know that the Jewish Independent have published an article on this very topic . Apparently , spanish researchers have spent 22 years investigating the famed explorer Christopher Columbus's national origins , and they've concluded that his DNA likely suggests he came from Jewish family . Is that right , dash ?
Speaker 1I believe . So , yes , this story seems to have caught the Jewish genealogical world by storm . The prospect at the discoverer , colonizer some might say , of the United States , Christopher Columbus , Italian , I believe .
Speaker 2It's funny . You should say that , because I'm ashamed to admit that when I heard the name Christopher Columbus , I just always thought he was American . And then but and I know , and you're going to say but Tammy , he's the guy who inverted commas discovered America . How could he have been American ? I was like , okay , so he's Spanish . But then just today I did read that , yeah , italian , but apparently Spanish Jewish ancestry , which really corroborates your hypothesis that everyone has secret Jewish ancestry or a closeted Jewish grandparent .
Speaker 1Totally , totally , yep , yep . Even old Christopher Columbus has got one . It's true . I've been telling you this for months now , tammy .
Speaker 2You have . But I actually didn't get excited when I received this article . I winced a little bit . I got a little bit paranoid because I thought well , the haters are going to latch onto this and they're going to link Christopher Columbus with not discovering but exploiting , which led to colonizing , and if he's got Jewish ancestry , then they'll put those links together and it might just galvanize that .
Speaker 1Well , clearly he was a Zionist even before the state of Israel was established or Zionism was even invented .
Speaker 2Yeah , I think that's potentially what they could say . I just don't think that we need another controversial Jew in the media right now , even if he is dead . Am I being too paranoid ?
Speaker 1Like I think you never want to overestimate the capacity of people these days to find someone's far-off Jewish ancestry and create all sorts of links and connections , and basically you can never underestimate people's capacity for antisemitism .
Speaker 2Yeah Well , from controversial historical explorers to contemporary controversial famous Americans , Dash . We're recording this episode on October 16 . And on this very day back in 2022 , kanye West , now known as Yee , made controversial remarks during an interview controversial remarks during an interview .
Speaker 1I'm not going to assume that everyone listening is aware who Kanye West is , but for those of you who are completely out of the cultural zygost and perhaps weren't aware , very famous American rapper of the last two decades , essentially .
Speaker 2Who was married to Kim Kardashian for some time . That's how other people position Kanye to Kim Kardashian for some time .
Speaker 1That's how other people position Kanye .
Speaker 2So back in 2022 , Kanye West rapper Kim Kardashian's ex-husband , also known as Yee , made controversial remarks during an interview on the Drink Champs podcast . Just so you know , Dash , we actually have a better rating than them , even though they have millions of followers , but we'll get there . So during this interview , Kanye amplified anti-Semitic conspiracy theories , accusing Jewish people of controlling the media and the music industry , and those remarks went on to be referenced by groups like the Nation of Islam during their Holy Day of Atonement sermon , and it just really highlights the ongoing impact of his rhetoric .
Speaker 1Was that the first time that Kanye or Yee was really outed , or outed himself , as someone that subscribes to such crazy , far out out anti-Semitic conspiracy theories ?
Speaker 2It's a good question . I don't have the answer to it . I think there was some stuff he said in 2021 and he had outed himself to employees who have since come forward .
Speaker 1I'm ashamed to admit I haven't done such thorough research , but it kind of seemed like it came out of nowhere , right , like I don't know . I wasn't a huge Kanye West fan , but all of a sudden he went from essentially being , as you said , married to Kim Kardashian and incredibly successful rapper . He did have an unsuccessful attempt at the presidency and did end up backing Donald Trump that's right . So things were starting to come off the rails , you could say around the mid-20-teens . Anyway , joining us in the studio today is someone who has developed quite an interest and fascination in Kanye West and , in particular , in his anti-Semitic conspiracy theories and the ideas that he's been propagating about Jewish people controlling the media . This person has been called a controversial Australian , a provocative Jewish Australian at that . He is none other than John Safran .
Speaker 2John dives deep into Kanye's anti-Jewish rhetoric in his new book Squat a week squatting at Kanye's mansion , so we sat down with John . Well , we tried to both sit down , but it actually ended up just being me because , dash , you had some technical issues you dropped in and out Anyway .
Speaker 1Sometimes it's better just to leave a conversation between two people . You know one of those convos where you're sitting there and you're like can't quite get a word in each other .
Speaker 2You're trying to say that our John and my unhinged energy was just too much for you , so you had to take your gray sweater to the kitchen and make yourself a cup of tea .
Speaker 1No , no , no , no , no , no , no . I was enjoying your chemistry and really it was a conversation best between two comedians or two writers .
Speaker 2Two button pushers Dash . Your presence was missed and I did ask one of your questions and I put on your serious voice and all . So I sat down with John Safran to unpack , unwrap . Do you see what I did there ? Because he's a , because Kanye's a rapper . Anyway , unpack this seriously , chewy and dewy topic .
Speaker 1So , with that in mind , enjoy Tammy's sometimes chaotic .
Speaker 2Yeah , chaotic .
Speaker 1Sometimes winding conversation with John .
Speaker 2Safran , thank you so much for joining us on A Shame to Admit .
Speaker 3Thank you for having me on , I appreciate it .
Speaker 2John , our original plan was to have you in before Yom Kippur to talk about your infamous broigus list and billboard .
Speaker 3Yeah , once a year I do a Yom Kippur list where I announce that on the Day of Atonement you're meant to beg forgiveness from people you may have offended over the year . And then my little twist is I go in that spirit , I ask , demand the following people to beg for my forgiveness because you've all offended me . And then I have a list of 100 names or so of just people in the community who I want them to beg for my forgiveness . And I usually just do it on social media . But two years ago I put it up on a billboard because these dudes , independent of this , said we own the billboard here . We usually put ads but you've got , if you've got like some little art project you want to do , you can have it for that . And then I joined the two together .
Speaker 3So one year in , uh , the corner of gertrude street and smith street , is that collingwood or Fitzroy , but anyway , one of them . Yeah , there was the list up on the billboard , but this year it was a bit different . I did a twist on it because you know you want to keep it fresh or whatever , and so because I've got a book that was coming out on the date of the list called Squat A Week Squatting in Kanye's Mansion , which is nonfiction . So it's what the book title says it is . I did my thing and I said apologies in advance , kanye West as my only . So , yeah , he got it . That's what this list was . It was one name and it was Kanye West and it was me apologizing , so there was a lot of twists with this year's list and it was me apologizing , so there was a lot of twists with this year's list .
Speaker 2And I know some jews and jewesses were furious that I didn't have my long list , but you know you got to keep things fresh we have brought you on today to discuss this book , so let's start where I think it may have all begun , but please correct me if I'm wrong February 2023, . My algorithm served me an article from the SBS headline Antoinette wanted to ditch her Kanye West merchandise , but her Jewish friend had another idea , and that Jewish friend was you . Can you tell me more about that ?
Speaker 3I think , as usual with all these wars , everyone's always saying the other person started it first , but in this case , I do think Kanye started it . He's the one who started pitching Hitler to his fan base and saying Hitler wasn't such a bad guy . Everyone brings something of worth , including Hitler . He tweeted a couple of things , including he's going to go DEFCON 1 on the Jews , which is , you know , defcon 1 is what you say in America if you're in the military and you're about to start a war or whatever . So his thing was that he felt that he'd been screwed over in the music industry and that the people , the head of the music industry in America , were Jewish , and he was tying that together and therefore saying it's the Jews who are responsible for my woes . So , anyway , so he started it , and then I happened to have started dating this girl at the time .
Speaker 3This woman , and she'd been a long-term Kanye fan and she'd bought over like you know , I'm talking about over 12 years or whatever had just bought Yeezywear , yeezy's fashion label , and she had quite a bit of it right . And she was saying to me , because she wasn't Jewish and so she was almost like more sensitive to it than I was because I've gone past the point of being able to take the high moral ground about anything when it comes to being offensive , anyway . So one thing led to another and then we just decided , oh , wouldn't it be cool to , because she didn't want to wear it in public and she didn't even want to have it anymore . So we thought , oh , why not upcycle it into yarmulkes , into Jewish skull caps , and we'll call them yirmulkes . Anyway , I thought that thing was going to be pretty easy .
Speaker 3You know , when you're not , it's not your craft , it's someone else's craft . So you just go . Oh , it must be pretty easy , just do that , or whatever . Anyway . So we went to a costume tailor you know someone who's really professional , a friend of hers , and she spent a couple of weeks and she forged out of three pieces of Yeezy wear , three yimukas , three yamukas , three Jewish skullcaps , and one was a particular favourite of the fans of Kanye , or people who knew Kanye , because it was his kind of like day glow , lemon , lime-ish Yeezy sneaker and apparently it's very iconic , it's like his iconic one , and so people into Kanye were really blown away . It looks amazing , or whatever . So I had three Yee Mookers . Now I have two , because I gave one to Kanye's pastor in Los Angeles .
Speaker 2Which you describe in your book .
Speaker 3I know it's like just you know , like I'm just describing this and I'm like desensitized to it . I'm just imagining a listener hearing this for the first time and going anyway . So I gave the third yimuka to Kanye's pastor in Los Angeles .
Speaker 2So did this happen before you'd started writing this book , or was it just serendipitous that it all happened while you'd already had the idea to delve into the world of Kanye and his- ?
Speaker 3Anti-Semitism and his comments about the Jews it was a bit fluid and vibey .
Speaker 3I also had written an article about Kanye which I think I just posted on my sub stack because I think no one was interested in it .
Speaker 3It was all too hard , and so people are familiar with my work .
Speaker 3I think I like getting into the cultural fault lines of like , where things don't quite fit , and anyway .
Speaker 3So I was just looking like getting into the cultural fault lines of like where things don't quite fit , and anyway . So I was just looking and also just it's just such a for people who know my work , the fact that this celebrity so as opposed to like someone on the fringes , you know , some political fringe dweller who's got these esoteric , weird views on the Jews it's like this celebrity like couldn't be more famous celebrity who's coming out with it , and so it's just like wow , he's like talking to young people and that's so weird . It's like young people will be hearing this for the first time or whatever . So I was kind of really quite apart from like what's right and wrong ethically and morally . It's just like very curious . It's like it feels like a moment that should have been marked or
Analyzing Kanye West and Jewish-American Relations
Speaker 3whatever . Then , on top of that , obviously Kanye West is a black American , he's not a white American . And then that becomes this , like what for so many other people would be , like who'd want to write about him ?
Speaker 3They'd try to kind of figure like oh God , why does he have to be black ? Why can't he be white ? Oh God , that would be so good . Me , as a Jewish writer , pushing back against all this talk against Jews . It would be so much better if he was white . But just because of me , I'm like nah , it's so much better that he's a black American , because that just makes it all tangly . And you know , aren't the Jews and the black ? You know , I like to say black American rather than just black , because it's like saying white where it's like well , there's so many versions of it all .
Speaker 2Fifty shades of white .
Speaker 3Yeah , exactly . So it's sort of like it's a very American story too as well , or whatever . I really feel like it's informed by Americanism as much as anything else , but anyway , so I just I was like , oh God , I need to somehow write about this , anyway , so I did write a piece which I put up on my sub stack , which was talking about how he was having a go at these bankers from his bank he used which which was a Chase Morgan bank , I think and he was having a go at specific people . He was naming names . So he named like three people of these bankers who were Jewish bankers , who had screwed him over . And then when I poked around on their website , none of the three quote unquote Jewish bankers were Jewish .
Speaker 3So I wrote a little article about that , like a piece about that . I mean , all these things , there's so many spinning plates going on . It's like once the book is written , it looks like a straight line in a way , like oh well , you're always going to do this and that , when really it's a lot crazier than that . So I ended up thinking there's something here , because I'm Jewish and Kanye's famous and also a black American and also he's come out in favor of Hitler and that's weird because obviously pretty much all neo-Nazis are against black people as well . So there were just so many kind of tangly things that seemed perfect .
Speaker 3But I actually , when I went over , I did not quite know what I was doing . And I booked the ticket and I was still like flailing around in the two weeks before I left and even the week before I left , trying to figure out what this was going to be about . And to give you an example was I think my pitch to Penguin was oh , kanye's made this accusation that Jews have screwed over his music career and this is outrageous and it's appalling . You say that , but from Michelangelo to Taylor Swift , there's always been artists who have sort of struggled with their benefactors , whoever they may be , and thought they've been screwed over by their benefactors and blah , blah , blah and ripped off financially or were compromised .
Speaker 3So I'm going to use Kanye's accusation as the starting point and in my head I might have somehow figured out a way to get to taylor swift and talk and like the book was going to be about the music industry and spotify algorithms and how that screws over artists . But when I've got sort of like a quarter of an idea , I like talking it out and not just to people you'd expect . Like I will absolutely just start , like if someone I don't go up to a stranger , but if , like just say I'm at a cafe or something , or someone comes up to me and says , hey , you're john're John Safran , I'll go . Yeah , no , what's up . And I like to explain my sort of quarter idea , to kind of just get it out of my like da-da-da , and I kind of see in their eyes it's all a bit organic .
Speaker 3To see where it lands , yeah and then I kind of even see in their eyes and stuff what they're kind of more interested , not less interested , in . And when I was explaining this Spotify like the music industry idea to people , then I'd occasionally talk about the history of Jewish Americans and black Americans and how they've been allies , but they've also bashed heads and I could just see everyone's eyes light up more with that than me blathering like no one cared about John Safran exposing the Spotifyify algorithm scandal and it was probably also partially because that was me figuring out . Oh , I'm becoming more alive when I talk about that and and it was also , this wasn't like I was just talking to the jews or like all jews are interested in this . Um , I was . I'm just talking to like normies or whatever . And again , it's kind of more organic . This all sounds like I've got some like graph or something or I've worked out something I can give a TED Talk about it . But I do find my work is better with these sort of like juxtapositions and clashing and even though my work is so infused with Jewish thoughts and my own history and what I've learnt and everything like that , it just seems more creatively interesting to be going . Okay , I'm going to like , try to explain that or make that interesting to a regular Australian even , as opposed to even a regular American . Because , even like , because in America , like the knowledge of Jewishness and what it all means , everyone's got their head around it a bit more in America . And so , anyway , I just got this vibe . There was a way to write this book about Kanye and about the history of Jewish Americans and black Americans , and the book's way more hectic and less academic than I'm making it sound . It really is so , that's why I went over there . Academic than I'm making it sound . It really is , so , that's why I went over there .
Speaker 3And then one thing led to another , like why am I squatting at Kanye's mansion , and what does it even mean ? He's got all these properties in Los Angeles . Here's like a couple of schools , one definitely abandoned , another Lord knows what and he's got like four properties and no one knows where it really is staying . But anyway , I found one of his huge mansions in the rolling hills of calabasas , where it's like a rural part of california , like it's in the county of los angeles , but it's not like what you imagine los angeles to be . It's , it's rural .
Speaker 3And , uh , it makes sense when you read the book because basically , I discovered that there was this homeless guy who was staying at one of kanye's school abandoned school houses . So that led to the thought of , oh okay , well , you know , you can squat at these abandoned places or whatever .
Exploring Paranoia and Jewish Identity
Speaker 3And then after I spend a week and a half or two weeks going around new york and la trying to gather all these stories about Jewish Americans and black Americans and people in Kanye's circle , and the idea is in the book is that , okay , I've got all these stories and now I'm going to go into his mansion and use it as a writer's retreat , and so I , yeah , so I , I breached the fence of his event and I've and people like , there's so many questions . You really have to read the book . I'm not trying to .
Speaker 2I've read the book . I'm encouraging our listeners to read the book .
Speaker 3Yeah , yeah , one thing leads to another , like everything makes a bit more sense about , like , because you're probably asking well , how do I know his house was abandoned and or was likely abandoned or he likely wasn't there , and that's explained and all the things , all those questions you might be having . Oh , what about the security and all this stuff like that ? And there's kind of all ants in the book , but the long and the short of it yeah , pretty much the whole book is me in his mansion and you know , sleeping in his bed eating his pasta and stuff like that drinking his sake .
Speaker 2I have read your book . I was given an advance reader copy . I just wanted to flex a little bit and I've been showing off that . I've read the book and people have said what's it about , and I've been saying it's about when John Safran squatted in Kanye West's mansion , but it's also about paranoia . Do you think that's a fair assessment ? Because I think a lot of it is not just about Kanye's paranoia but about your paranoia and almost making a case for why that paranoia is justified .
Speaker 3It's paranoia around Jewish identity and about how outsiders see Jews . Is that what you mean by paranoia ?
Speaker 2Yes , but also there's a part where you go to meet the ultra-Orthodox rabbi who allegedly gave Kanye Torah classes . I think that rabbi says something about Reform Judaism . I've got a quote here . Can I read it ?
Speaker 3to you ? Yeah , for sure .
Speaker 2So this is when you've gone to visit the ultra-Orthodox rabbi rumoured to have given Kanye Torah lessons . So you said , the Rebbe laid it out the reformed Jewish movement founded in Germany in the mid-19th century tossed aside strict religious practices in Germany in the mid-19th century , tossed aside strict religious practices , endeavouring to blend in with their non-Jewish neighbours . This angered Hashem , so he sent in Adolf Hitler and the Nazis to remind the Jews in that part of the world to stick to their own and serve as a larger lesson to Jews across the world . And then you say reformed Jews are to blame for the Holocaust . I asked and he replies no one in the secular world wants to admit , wants to see it that way , but I'm telling you true facts . Now that's like a conspiracy theory of its own .
Speaker 3Yeah , for sure . I mean I think it's really . I love how you bring up the paranoia . It's like something I haven't thought about before in this book . But yeah , that's awesome Because I kind of feel like something I haven't thought about before in this book . But yeah , that's awesome because I kind of feel like when I wrote this book , particularly this book with a lot of my stuff , but particularly this book , I was kind of it's being held together by kind of emotional , what feels emotionally true , and I feel like things were put in there because they just felt like they were part of this bigger thing . But then there are like unanswered things . Like , for instance , you're saying this book is about paranoia and it kind of is , but I never really thought about it that way .
Speaker 2But you get so paranoid when you're in his house .
Speaker 3You're right . But I guess what I'm saying is when I was writing it in my actual head , I wouldn't say to someone , basically , if they said what's this book about , I wouldn't have said , oh , it's about paranoia . But it is true , because even on the book blurb it's like John goes crazier each day as he's worried that he's going to be busted . But I get .
Speaker 3You see , that's what I guess from my . I would have said I'm paranoid because I'm worried I'm going to get busted , as opposed to , you know , by the neighbours calling the cops or whatever , rather than . But , having said that , you're absolutely right , because the book is me kind of like digging into my kind of identity and Jewishness and stuff , and then it's like , yeah , it is me going paranoid or whatever , but I just wouldn't . I didn't kind of , when I was writing it I wasn't going , oh , this is what I want to convey out there . But yeah , that's true , but it is true . Like , for instance , I don't want to give too much away , but it's like Kanye's mansion isn't the only house I trespass into in Los Angeles .
Speaker 3There's three places I breach the fence and I just feel like it's up to someone else besides me to explain that Like I'm not giving you the secret .
Speaker 3I feel like that means something . I feel like the whole thing of me breaching fences and going into places I'm not meant to like it must mean something . But I feel like it's up to a third party to explain it to me because , like , I put that in there because it just obviously just seems cheeky and fun and and also just you're not meant to do it and definitely I know there'll be readers who will just be that that's beyond the pale , right . So I kind of put it in for these things that they just feel like creatively interesting and emotionally true or something , and then but I feel like , yeah , it's up to the third party , the reader , to come back to me and go well , this actually is about paranoia and you're right , it is .
Speaker 2You write that the Jew is an archetypal character in the worldview of Christianity . They blame us for killing Christ Islam . They say we're descendants of apes and pigs , and the far right consider us puppet masters and the far left consider us the ultimate colonizers and zionists . And then you say you just can't tell me that none of that can catch fire in dangerous ways yeah , that seems like totally true , though , doesn't it ?
Speaker 3yeah , yeah , so I think that's kind of yeah . So that's not paranoia , that's the opposite of paranoia , that's paranoia that's justified . Yeah , I think the heading of one of the chapters is isn't it ? Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you , or whatever ? That bumper sticker from the 1960s that then Nirvana turned into a song lyric that then I turned into a chapter heading ?
Speaker 3Yeah , so I guess I was using paranoia and overthinking to reach something that's kind of at least has aspects of truth and and obviously there's different layers to things .
Speaker 3So it's not like it's not like the only thing going on is everyone's against the Jews and the only thing going on is like , oh , if you ever criticize the Jews about anything , it's the worst .
Speaker 3Or like I'm not saying it , but on is like , oh , if you ever criticise the Jews about anything , it's the worst , like I'm not saying , but it is like that's definitely a layer to things . And also , yeah , I think this book it's all set in America , except for one bit at the very start , and I did that on purpose , for like creative reasons , because I just felt like LA is just more interesting for the context of this book and also I'm sealed in , sealed into this mansion and I always find it interesting that , because my books have themes that are can be seen as political , that people think that's how I'm writing the book or whatever . Like I'm reading all these different political arguments and trying to when really it's more like I exist in the world and I like to write things where it's about me getting in touch with sort of like all the vibes floating through the world at that moment and then inevitably there's going to be politics behind that . Like . This book's not really that political , but it is all about I guess it depends what you think politics means or whatever , but it is more about the kind of more the long history of Jews and how outsiders perceive Jews and like the long train that's kind of come from thousands of years ago and now it's here in LA in Kanye's mansion in 2023 , when I was there .
Speaker 3Tammy's chat with John Safran will continue after this short break .
Speaker 2Hey Dash . Do you know who Kim Kardashian's divorce lawyer was during her split from Yee ?
Speaker 1I bet it was that high profile attorney based in Los Angeles . She's the one that does all the celebrity divorces . She did the Angelina Jolie and Britney's divorce .
Speaker 2Yeah , you're thinking of Laura Wasa .
Speaker 1Ah , yes , wasa , yeah .
Speaker 2Wasa . She's often referred to as the Disso Queen because , you know , in the States they say they call it dissolution of marriage Disso Queen . But if Kim and Kanye had been living in Australia back in 2021 , there is no doubt that Kim would have been represented by Sydney's own high-profile Disso or divorce queen , diana Perla . Diana and her terrier-in-training , terry Liebman , are highly qualified in various family law areas , including shared parenting , complex financial matters , wills and estates . Diana Perla and Associates are long-time listeners and first-time sponsors of today's show .
Speaker 1So if you've got a Kanye in your life and you want the best outcome for your extrication , call Diana Perla and Associates . We'll leave a link to their website in today's show notes . Call Diana Perl and Associates . We'll leave a link to their website .
Speaker 2In today's show notes you also acknowledge your partner , antoinette , at the start of your book . Yeah , it's very romantic , it's also risky .
Speaker 3Yes .
Speaker 2It doesn't work out .
Speaker 3Well , it's kind of where , yes , we're not together , so yeah , but you know Still friends . Yeah , yes .
Speaker 2Okay , so you're not going and riffing the dedication page out of all of us .
Speaker 3No , no , no .
Speaker 2Well , the reason why I brought up Antoinette is because Antoinette's an artist , and I think it was Antoinette in the book who's seen your actions through the prism of making art . And you even posit the question that perhaps Kanye said those things about the Jews for art's sake , to make a statement that perhaps he didn't even mean it . So my question is do you see it that way ? Do you still listen to Kanye's music after this whole experience ? And what's your thought on separating the artist from the shitty things they've said or done ?
Speaker 3Yeah , I mean I'm really , maybe I'm a good data point or an interesting , because I feel like I'm just on a different page to so many people and it's also partially because I'm no angel , so I really have to . I'm like self-aware and so I've done through my work things which I back , but they're kind of pushing buttons so it's very hard to look at my catalogue and go , well , john just gets to , and I wouldn't want to anyway , but John gets to like wag his finger at everyone . It's not long before someone goes . Hang on . Are you the guy who got nailed to the crucifix in the Philippines and you're like acting outraged
Navigating Controversial Cultural Influences
Speaker 3?
Speaker 3When I was younger , you know , like senior years of high school and then first years of uni , I was just really into reading and consuming kind of countercultural stuff that was like pushing buttons and was complicated and would have politics in it but wasn't strictly about politics , like I don't know something like Public Enemy , who I actually talked to a former member of in this book , but how , their stuff is talking about the black experience as they saw it in America , but it's not really didactic politics . And then they say awkward stuff , uncomfortable stuff , that just doesn't land anymore today . You know about Jews , even about women on some things , and it's all complicated . So that's one example . But I was also like into , you know , like Abbie Hoffman , steal this Book and just all these things that are kind of challenging and make you think you're not meant to take this all literally like gangster rap . It's like that was a challenge when I listened to it because I listened to it first time around , if you know what I mean when it was coming out and it's like , well , they're talking about doing drive-bys , so what does that mean ? Like I don't believe in drive-bys , so drive-bys are bad . Does that mean this music should be bad ? Like it never occurred to me that it should , but it'd be like , oh well , no , it's sort of storytelling . And then through that storytelling , people who aren't in these , uh , you know , in that case , in compton in america , in the black american , they're learning new stuff and it's sort of like you're learning about other people or whatever . So I was .
Speaker 3And also like steal this book by abby hoffman . Like that's the ultimate . It's like you walk into a bookshop and the book's titled steal this book , and it's like , well , what , hang on what ? And so I was always into this stuff , that , and I'm totally not only am I desensitized , I just thought it's really valid that you have these artists , creative people who are sort of you know they're being tricksters , they're being trolls , a little bit like that and and they add value in their own modest way to a , to a community or to a society or whatever . So basically , by the time it got to Kanye , I just maybe I'm wrong for this , but I just really never had a problem with , like , owning a Kanye record . And then he said this I mean , you know , I've got I'm looking over here on my bookshelf , I've got Shakespeare . I bring that up in this book briefly about Shakespeare and the Merchant of Venice and even , god damn it .
Speaker 3I went to Yeshiva College and for listeners , I'm sure lots of you know , or most of you know , but it's like this ultra-Orthodox Jewish school where you need little side locks and everything like that , even though my family wasn't like that , but anyway it's a long story , but anyway we learned Shakespeare . And the teacher just said oh listen , here's the bit where it's anti-Jewish or whatever , or at leastiva . I was brought up that you can reconcile , that there's Shakespeare and he said all this stuff against the Jews . But we should still learn it and we can still appreciate it . So I guess I've never thought about that before . It's not even my fault . That's how I was brought up , so blame the rabbis .
Speaker 3So therefore , when it comes to Kanye , I'm like , well , I've just been brought up that it's okay to read Shakespeare and appreciate Shakespeare , even though what he said about Jews , and so to Kanye , and I really feel like you've got to understand that I came of age in the 90s where the backdrop to culture and the way things were perceived was so different I mean like I mean South Park's an example or whatever where you don't understand People used to think it was progressive . If you were like progressive and lefty , the fact that you were kind of trying to push buttons and look at things in different ways , was just seen as progressive and almost like not problematic . But that's totally changed and it's too late for me . I was brought up under the Yeshiva Shakespeare , merchant of Venice and South Park , south Park , and I'm not even like playing , I sincerely I just have such a wider kind of acceptance of what's offensive and not .
Speaker 2So if Kanye brought out a new album , you'd buy it .
Speaker 3Maybe not just because I wouldn't buy it , but I wouldn't . If I wanted to I'd got yeah , totally buy it . I mean , okay , even in my research you could even go I get more leeway in my research because I like I look into the far right and stuff like that . So I've got like books that are like far right books because it like helps me with my work . So I guess that seems like a bit like oh , john , you're trying to get off the hook , but I'm not . It's just the fact . The fact is that , and I actually remember when covid came and everyone started doing zoom or whatever , and so you set up your computer and your bookshelves in the back and it was like the first time I realized , oh , you've got to work like we've .
Speaker 3Now we're in some world where you've got to worry that people are going to look at your bookshelves and and that just wasn't the case like everyone just got it . It was a different reality where it was just like oh no , you have like a wide range of things . Like I don't know , would people find it weird if , like a religious , you had a copy of mind comes , would they go oh , that's outrageous . In the 90s , a religious you in the 90s could absolutely have mind comes on this shelf and you'd almost not even have to ask the question . They'd be like oh no , I just thought I need to learn about this and da-da-da-da-da . But now , like everything's just so spiky and blah-blah-blah .
Speaker 2It is . I'll tell you where I draw the line . I know you haven't asked and this interview is not about me .
Speaker 3Where do you draw the line , Tammy
Debating Banning Problematic Artists
Speaker 3?
Speaker 2A few years ago , when I was pregnant , I did aqua aerobics and one of the songs that came on was a Michael Jackson song and all the boomers had no problem with it . They kept doing their things , but the whole time the Michael Jackson songs playing . I just can't stop thinking about him being a pedophile and the things that he did to kids , which I learned about through the documentary , and I was like I can't do it .
Speaker 3I can't listen to Michael Jackson anymore and people keep telling me that I have to separate the art from the artist . But would you ban him ? I mean because obviously you don't have to listen to whatever you don't want to listen to . And also , like there's things I , for instance , I don't like fictionalized . Also , like there's things I , for instance , I don't like fictionalized , I would not see a film where , even though it's not real , like dogfights with animal torture and it's all , it's not real , it's not actually happening , because I saw a film that had that in it and I absolutely would not watch it and I'd walk out . But that's different to me banning . You know what I mean . So would you ban Michael Jackson records or would you just not listen to it ?
Speaker 2Well , Michael Jackson's dead . So let's say that there was like a living person who had done those horrific things . If I had the power to ban , I think I would . In that case , If it's like when it comes to pedophilia , that's where I'm like yeah , that person does not deserve to profit anymore and that person's taking a space away from someone else who is perhaps a good person , who isn't getting a platform .
Speaker 3I totally if there was a crime committed in the creation of something that's like independent to free speech , so yeah , like in the case of reprehensible stuff with kids , like totally like that should be banned .
Speaker 2Okay , this is a question from Dash , who's not here , so obviously something's happened with him technically , but he'll probably be angry at me if I don't ask you this and it's following this train of thought . So this is Dash . John , it feels like 15 plus years ago you were the darling of an inner city lefty progressive seat because of the transgressive TV , radio and other content you were making , but now it feels like that's not the case . And would you agree ? Nah ?
Speaker 3No , what I'd say , or if the implication is well , I guess when this book comes out we'll see . But I kind of think people can be too online and I think basically most people aren't thinking about me . And so if the implication is that 15 years ago the left didn't have issues with Jews or something and now they do and you're a Jew and therefore you're now a problem for the left , I'd need more kind of data rather than just , oh , you know , there's three people on social media snarking about me because I'm jewish or whatever . Like I kind of imagine it's more the story is like oh , I used to do docos and now I do books , unless people read books , or oh , it'd be sort of more that . But we shall see , we shall see .
Speaker 3Like this book , because this book is coming out , I feel like the ball's in the air and definitely there's a thing at the moment where , in the arts , where people are challenged about , well , what does it mean to be Jewish in Australia with everything that's going on with Israel-Palestine ? So I kind of get where he's coming from . He could feed me some data he could go . Hey , john , I was talking to these people at this pub north side and they said this about you and I'll be able to put that into my data bank of building the argument .
Speaker 2Well , you were targeted during the Zio 600 targeting of Jewish creatives Were you aware of ?
Speaker 3that just vaguely , because I mean it just shows how sinister some of this stuff is . Where there's , um , you know how , there's like a holden commodore group online or whatever . And , like muslim , there's just so many groups online for different interests and different , you know , muslims have groups , greens have groups , liberal voters and conservative bicycle riders and everything like that . And then so there's a group called Jewish Creatives , and so why wouldn't everyone join that ? So then , like hundreds just end up joining that or whatever . And then a handful are trying to like they're upset with this or that person because they're criticizing israel too much , so they're like , oh , we've got to go and complain to them , to their bosses , about them , or whatever , right , and then it was just totally misrepresented . Like there's hundreds of jews , but and they and they knew that , like the , the people who sort of are claiming that that is a cold , calculated decision to misrepresent things because they don't like Jewish Australians , they could have presented it and they said , oh , listen , we found it in this group , and there's like hundreds . But don't get it wrong , hundreds of people weren't plotting together , so that's not the case . What happened was there was a handful of people and whatever you think about that whatever . They had the choice to do that , but they didn't because , for whatever reason , in the same way that you know , there's people who don't like Muslims and there's people who don't like Indigenous people . So these people don't like Jews , and it's demonstrated by the fact that , although they're claiming it's all about Zionism or what they're totally willing to try to like , smear it , they just think about Jews in a different way than I do .
Speaker 3I'm a human being too and I just have a right to just kind of go no , no , no , I'm not going to look at the glass half full version , oh , in a more general sense or whatever , or does it really matter ? In the overall scheme of things , it's like no , no , no , you've punched me in the nose and I've got other options besides taking it and hanging out with you and kind of putting a spin on it that it's not so bad . You punch me in the nose Like , yeah , just go away and I'm going to go over here . I know it's good for your personal brand to try to get social credit points by lying and trying to humiliate Jewish Australians from the left perspective and cool , cool , do it , but I don't have to be a part of it . So go away or don't go away , but don't expect me to , you know , give you a positive reference .
Family Anecdotes and Petty Confessions
Speaker 2Usually we ask our guests to tell us something that they're ashamed to admit .
Speaker 3just in general , I don't know , because I guess that's that thing of like . Are you into something that people don't know about ? Like that would be one way to look at it . Am I into some bad sitcom that I obsessively watch ? But I think it would be bad for my personal . I can't think of anything because I'm such a troll . If I I was , I'd brag about it , I'd be going , haha . So I'm trying to think what I'm ashamed to admit . I don't know if I'm ashamed to admit this , but I am way .
Speaker 3I've watched so many uh , bad horror films because I want the buzz of like . Every 60th horror film gives me this buzz of like . Oh , my God , that's like . That's why I like the Omen and the Exorcist and Hello Alien . But I've just watched so many bad ones and not even and not like in some like oh , I'm going to watch the oldies from the seventies . In some like detached , ironic way , it's like no , no , going to the theatre as a grown-up and just seeing these bad , but like there's so many of them . So I guess that's a bit shameful .
Speaker 2Are you ashamed to admit that you squatted in Kanye West's mansion ?
Speaker 3Well , not enough that I didn't put out a book about it with the subtitle being A Week Squatting at Kanye . So , yes , my problem isn't that I'm ashamed . It's sort of like your podcast should be . Have a sister podcast with Should Be Ashamed , to Admit , where you have people like me and you tell me like things . I seem to not be ashamed of that I actually should be . Have you just pitched a new podcast ? When you become like a , it becomes like a bit of an empire . You know , like Conan O'Brien has his own podcast , but now it's like it's like an empire where there's other sub podcasts and stuff like that . Right , that's my pitch to you .
Speaker 2Okay , cool Would be a pleasure . John , obviously we can't talk about the ending of the book because we don't want any spoilers . I just wanted to let you and our listeners know that it's very good and very moving . You're basically making a case for people to listen to this podcast . Stick together , have a sense of community . I think your cousin's husband is going to give it a good rating . Do you want to talk more about the cousin who shit-talked your old book ?
Speaker 3Yeah , it wasn't a cousin . It's left ambiguous who it was .
Speaker 2Oh , I thought you said your cousin's husband .
Speaker 3Extended family Okay .
Speaker 2Just to give our listeners context someone in your extended family married someone who left you a shit review of your book on Goodreads , was it ?
Speaker 3On Amazoncom . Yes , I do a bit of fun with that in this book . I've always wanted to tell that story because it just seems ridiculous and also it's kind of funny because it positions me as petty you know what I mean Like my character in all my stuff , but particularly in this book . Like I somehow have to be petty and sort of like the butt of the joke myself . So , for instance , in the case of telling that story , it can't just be this like straight line , I'm indignant . Can you believe , hey reader , can you believe this guy left a bad review and bubba , like trying to build the case , like I have to be this , like the joke sort of has to be apparent that I'm ridiculously petty myself , you know .
Speaker 3But having said that , yeah , it did wound . Now hopefully it wouldn't wound me as much , but it was my first book , so I was quite wounded by it . I just felt betrayed . Okay , I guess that's the thing that really wounds you . It's like when you feel betrayed and especially like someone like me . But I think I just so adapt , I'm going okay , so because of who I am and what I do , I should have to expect that and that . So I sort of like adapt to build so much in my head about stuff that maybe other people would be a bit wounded by where I'm going . Well , I'm not going to going to be wounded by that and then . But you're always blindsided and then you find out you're just a person like everyone else .
Speaker 2I was going to say , nothing is pettier than the chats that go on in the extended family group chat , because there's always . It's kind of like Conan's empire . You've got the family group chat and then you've got the offshoots of that where you bitch about what goes on in the central one . So I liked that anecdote . As a petty person it really resonated with me .
Speaker 3Yeah for sure . But I guess , yeah , like lots of those stories , they kind of resonate a bit , maybe because it's about family and you know , it's a bit like the Sopranos or something . Yeah , I'm comparing my little anecdote to the Sopranos but , um , where it's like the Sopranos just resonates with everyone because it's like about family , even though it happens to be like a mafia family , and you know , it's not like just Italians and Italian-Americans are into the Sopranos , like everyone is . So that's my little writing tip .
Speaker 2What's the writing tip ?
Speaker 3Write about family , write about personal wound , you know , and give it to the flavour of like the world you're in , like whatever your ethnicity or your subculture is . But then people are going to like it because it kind of extends beyond that okay .
Speaker 2Well , my writing tip is to make sure that if you're writing something petty about someone in the central family group , that you be careful that you don't send it to the to the one where that person is in .
Speaker 3Totally . It's so weird . Everything's like the Stasi these days , where you're just kind of worried about anything you commit to , anything can just be screenshotted . It's just weird . It's like irony is not allowed . I think I've got like zero people . I used to have like a small group of friends . I'd go , okay , I can just be a smart ass on this and say things that are ironically offensive . And now it's even . It's like well , no , I'm not going to say that , I'm not , I'm not going to commit that dark humor to even my closest friend in . You know , I'll say it in real life once I look around and make sure that they're not mic'd up and stuff like that . But it's just so , what a weird . Who who would have thought that plot twist in the world , like back in , you know , even 15 years ago , like where it's like oh , irony's out .
Speaker 2Fuck , you're going to have to rebrand .
Speaker 3No , it's too late . Now . I'm pushing through because the backdrop to the world we're never at the end of history , if you know what I mean . And I feel like we're already kind of escaping it a bit and I reckon we're going to get back to a time when you can just be ironic and dark and you know , and you just don't get in trouble .
Speaker 2This is something we'll move through .
Speaker 3Yes , definitely .
Speaker 2Okay , we need to wrap up . You've given us slash me I don't know where Dash went so much of your time . I really appreciate that . I highly recommend all of our listeners get a hold of John's book Squat .
Speaker 3A Week Squatting at Kanye's Mansion .
Speaker 2John Safran .
Speaker 3Thank you so much for joining us no , thank you , this was lots of fun . Thank you for telling me I'm paranoid , like you know . That's good , it seems so obvious . Now it's like the end of the M Night Shyamalan films , where you have like the flashbacks . They go oh , that's , it's so obvious . Now I'm just looking back to everything . Yeah , no , you're right .
Speaker 2John Safran .
Speaker 1And if you'd like to hear more about his book , we'll put all the details in the show notes . But that's it for another week .
Speaker 2That's right , you've been listening to TJI's . A Shame to Admit with me Tammy Sussman and you , dash Lawrence .
Speaker 1This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King and theme music by Donovan Jenks .
Speaker 2Our episode this week was made possible by the support of our sponsors , sydney's own Divorce Queens , diana , perla and Associates .
Speaker 1If you like the podcast , leave a positive review , tell your people or encourage your mates with that excellent business to be our sponsor .
Speaker 2You can tell us your deepest , darkest secrets via the contact form on the Jewish Independent website , or you can email your feedback or episode requests Ashamed at theewishindependentcomau . Is that address ?
Speaker 1As always , thanks for your support and look out for us next week .
Speaker 2Hasta pronto , amigas bonitas . Mi numero de telefono es el 041338 . Uno , tres , tres , ocho .
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