Ashamed to Admit
Are you ashamed to admit you're not across the big issues and events affecting Jews in Australia, Israel and around the Jewish world?
In this new podcast from online publication The Jewish Independent, Your Third Cousin Tami Sussman and TJI's Dashiel Lawrence tackle the week's 'Chewiest and Jewiest' topics.
Ashamed to Admit
Episode #22 The paradox of American Jewish support for Trump, with Dan Coleman
As the US Presidential election nears, Tami and Dash speak with TJI columnist and Democrat Dan Coleman about the paradox of American Jewish support for Donald Trump and the Republican Party.
Plus, a preview of TJI’s documentary, PITA with VEGEMITE, which is premiering at this year’s Jewish International Film Festival.
https://www.jiff.com.au/films/pita-with-vegemite-an-israeli-australia-story#
Article relevant to this episode:
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/why-we-had-to-make-pita-with-vegemite
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/events/pita-with-vegemite-screening-at-jiff-sydney
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/everything-to-see-at-jiff-2024
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/when-they-ask-about-learning-hebrew
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/antisemitism-befouls-republican-campaigns
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/jimmy-carter-at-100-his-jewish-legacy
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/the-antisemitic-extremist-whose-voice-rings-loud-in-us-congress
Email your feedback, questions, show ideas etc: ashamed@thejewishindependent.com.au
(You can also email voice memos here).
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Are you interested in issues affecting Jews in Australia and the world at large, but a little bit ashamed that you're barely keeping up to date, that you don't have enough prerequisite knowledge to hold your own at a family dinner.
Speaker 2:Well, you've come to the right place. I'm Dash Lawrence and, in this podcast series, your third cousin, tammy Sussman, and I call on experts and each other to address all the ignorant questions that you may be too ashamed to ask.
Speaker 1:Join us as we have a go at cutting through some seriously chewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Jewish Independent Podcast. Ashamed to Admit. Hello everyone, I'm Dash Lawrence from the Jewish Independent.
Speaker 1:And I'm Tammy Sussman and I create creative as a freelancer.
Speaker 2:Not bad.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 2:That's what 12 years of Jewish day school education produces.
Speaker 1:No, I had to ask my friends in Tel Aviv how to say I'm Tammy Sussman and I'm a creative freelancer. I can also say I didn't learn that in high school either. That means I took Kat to synagogue. He had a lot of diarrhea, also self-taught Dash. I'm practicing my Hebrew so I can impress some of the stars of the film Pitta with Vegemite this weekend.
Speaker 2:This episode that you're hearing is coming out on the 29th of October. This weekend in Sydney is the world premiere of the Jewish Independent's very own documentary, peter with Vegemite. This was a documentary that was filmed six months after the October 7th attacks Tammy. It features nine Israeli Australians reflecting on life here in Australia and also what they have left behind, what they've gained, but the missing part of their lives over the other side of the globe, how they reconcile that with their new identity here in Australia and life in Melbourne, in Sydney, in Perth, in Mullumbimby. All of this is at the heart of Pitted With Vegemite.
Speaker 1:I've seen it, Dash. I loved it. It was really interesting and I'm ashamed to admit that I'm a bit of a film snob, so I thought I knew what it would be about. I thought, yeah, it'll be like some people talking about how they miss Israel, they miss home, but they love Australia, but they feel guilty that they're not there, but life is easier here. Yada, yada, yada. I underestimated the impact of this film. It was really moving. It's full of surprises. I highly recommend that all of our listeners go and see it and take a friend or some friends with them.
Speaker 2:Also features the beautiful music of Northern Rivers musician Shai Shrieky, who is one of the participants in the documentary, and Shai will be playing at the Melbourne screening and all the information, including tickets, are available via the GIF website, the Jewish International Film Festival website. We'll put the details in today's show notes. I should also add that after the film there'll be a Q&A expanding on a lot of the themes that the documentary raises and featuring some of the participants in the documentary, and you'll also be treated to a specially curated selection of Israeli snacks. More on that. If you buy your tickets, look, I should also just say Tammy, you don't get a hell of a lot of content and stories featuring Israeli Australians. They account for an increasing percentage of the Australian Jewish population. They are the only part of the Jewish community that is growing in size and number. You know their stories haven't been platformed enough in this community, so it's really great that we're able to do that with this documentary and, yeah, really moving piece of cinema.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is, and then after that go see Running on Sand at 6.20. That also features a underrepresented group living in Israel. Eritrean Refugee Is that how you pronounce it?
Speaker 2:Eritrean.
Speaker 1:Eritrean, so Running on Sand was nominated for so many awards. And then, after that, you can see A Real Pain starring Jesse Eisenberg directed by Jesse Eisenberg, I believe and also starring Kieran Culkin, who's a top pick for an Oscar.
Speaker 2:Congratulations to the Jewish International Film Festival on putting together such a terrific program. There's dozens of films that I want to see in the festival this year.
Speaker 1:Mm samesies Dash, we haven't spoken about your fave topic in a while.
Speaker 2:You mean marathons? No Genealogy. No Britney and Madonna's kiss at the 2003 VMAs.
Speaker 1:No, but I'm so happy you brought that up. Try again. One last chance.
Speaker 2:The Australian census.
Speaker 1:Yes, the Australian census, Okay. Dash without looking at the 88-page document from the JCA. Dash without looking at the 88-page document from the JCA. Do you reckon you could tell me the top five languages spoken in Aussie Jewish homes as identified in the 2021 census?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a good trivia. Question English obviously.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's number one.
Speaker 2:Hebrew Good. Russian.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Spanish.
Speaker 1:Yes, but not in that order and the other one.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, it doesn't have to be in order right?
Speaker 1:No, it does, but you've got three.
Speaker 2:Oh, did you ask me to give it to you, in order.
Speaker 1:No, but I can make up the rules as I go along.
Speaker 2:You got one more, it's not Yiddish, it is, it's Yiddish.
Speaker 1:It is, it's Yiddish.
Speaker 2:Really.
Speaker 1:And there's actually more Yiddish speakers than Spanish speakers.
Speaker 2:Okay, yep, I believe that.
Speaker 1:How did you know about the Spanish speakers?
Speaker 2:Did you just retain that from when you read the document? There has been a small but noticeable increase in the number of Spanish-speaking Jewish people in Australia in the last 10 or so years. Jewish people in Australia in the last 10 or so years I'm assuming you would explain that through the associated increase in people from Colombia and Argentina and Chile and South American countries in general. That would be my hypothesis. The numbers are still pretty small.
Speaker 1:Fascinating huh.
Speaker 2:Indeed, yeah. So apropos of absolutely nothing, Tammy, this is not connected with languages. I'm just wondering if you have ever thought about the possibility of the high level of neuroticism and anxiety being particularly prevalent among Jewish people.
Speaker 1:Okay, let me break down what you've just said. Firstly, I've never heard that word said out loud. I thought it was apropos of nothing.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:I've only seen it written.
Speaker 2:Okay, apropos.
Speaker 1:Apropos sounds remarkably similar to a probo.
Speaker 2:Silent S at the end.
Speaker 1:Okay, so apropos of nothing meaning connected to nothing that's previously been said, in lieu of a segue, it was a total non sequitur for me. Okay, you would like to know if I've thought about the high level of neuroticism and anxiety experienced by Jews. Yeah, yeah, is that a trick question?
Speaker 2:Like do you think it's genetic or is it a product of environment, circumstances and history?
Speaker 1:It's both because it started with circumstances and history and then scientists show that that actually changed the cells in our bodies. So I mean, that has kind of been debunked. Jury's still out on that whether it does change the cells. But yeah, I think it's definitely both. Why? Why are you thinking about that, dash?
Speaker 2:Well, the conversation that we're going to have today touches on something that I'm really feeling a lot of at the moment, Like I am probably someone that tends in the neurotic direction. I'm probably not like Larry David and neurotic or-.
Speaker 1:Elaine George Costanza.
Speaker 2:Or yeah, Elaine or George Costanza, neurotic or anxious, but you know, I'm probably not too far off them.
Speaker 1:Surprising, because you hide it well.
Speaker 2:I do, yeah, but when it comes to the US election I think I've talked about this- on the show before actually this is not the first time I've read this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I'm feeling at the moment we're only a few weeks out from the election and I can't predict what's going to happen. And I can't predict what's going to happen. This like lack of clarity, this doubt, this uncertainty is hanging over me, and I can't wait for the election to be held so we can finally get an answer to this question that's been bubbling away really all this year of who will be the next President of the United States, and I really feel that the stakes are incredibly high this time around, and I feel that there is very good reason this year for Australians to have a strong interest in it and to be also following it closely. A few weeks ago, we had Peter Savodnik, the political journalist, who has spent quite a lot of time covering both the Democrats and the Republicans and also had been at both the Trump and the Harris nominations. We spoke to Peter mostly about the Democrats, though we did want to have a separate conversation about Trump and the Republicans. So this week, who are we inviting to the studio? Tammy?
Speaker 1:I'll give you his bio in a minute, but first I'm just curious to know does your anxiety and heightened levels of neuroticism play out in more frequent visits to the bathroom?
Speaker 2:Not as much as you'd expect.
Speaker 1:Well, you're not Jewish, so how does it play out for you? So you don't just do more poos, what do you do?
Speaker 2:I eat more, I think, and I Do you bite your nails. Oh, yes, I do Okay.
Speaker 1:Without further ado, or as you pronounce it, without further ado.
Speaker 2:I didn't hear that. You didn't bring that up.
Speaker 1:You did. You said it in one episode and I just kept it in. Dan Coleman is our special guest today. He's a regular contributor to the Jewish Independent, covering US politics. He's a former member of the Iscarborough North Carolina Town Council I hope I've pronounced that correctly, North Carolina Town Council, hope I've pronounced that correctly and a former political columnist for the Durham North Carolina Morning Herald. He is the author of Eco-Politics Building a Green Society. Dan Coleman, thank you so much for joining us in the Ashamed to Admit studio.
Speaker 3:Yes, I'm not ashamed to admit that I've joined you. Really it's a badge of honor, I'm sure.
Speaker 1:Thank you. I love that specificity in certain circles. I'll take that so, dan. A few weeks ago we had American political journalist Peter Savodnik on the show and he was really here to explain American juries' long but increasingly complicated relationship with the Democratic Party. So we've brought you here because we'd really love for you to summarize the story of American Jewry and the Republican Party. Are you able to do that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, to some extent, not having traveled in those spaces, my experience or perspective as one of an observer and to some extent an analyst of those phenomenon and having been engaged in those political struggles over several decades. I do want to push back on something Peter said that I think would be a good frame for our conversation. So he maintained that American Jews are currently without a home politically. He didn't give any evidence for that assertion and I believe that's because there is none. In the average of elections going back to 1968, jews supported the Democratic candidate by 71 percent. Biden got 70%, obama on his first run got 78% of Jewish vote and Harris is currently tracking slightly below that. In the 60s depending on which poll you look at, which we had not seen that number since the 1980s, not seen that number since the 1980s when there was a dip at that time. Previously there'd been a dip in the 1950s under President Eisenhower, and I think it's pretty clear why the majority of Jews have a home in the Democratic Party.
Speaker 3:I know, you want to talk about the Republicans, but I think it's important to lay this out so Forward.
Speaker 3:Just in the last two weeks did a poll of a number of attitudes of Jewish voters and the most important issue for Jewish voters in the US by far is democracy and preservation of democratic norms and principles and practices.
Speaker 3:Norms and principles and practices. And if you look at the two parties, just even in recent years, the Democrats have put out several versions of the voting rights bill that would make election day a holiday, make it easier to register to vote, provide an established minimum period of early voting across the country, and those have passed the Democratic-controlled House and been stopped by Republicans in the Senate. Meanwhile, republican legislatures, where they control the state governments, are putting up all kinds of obstacles to voting. They want to reduce the vote because the more people who vote, the worse they do. So it's just understanding that one principle about democracy. It's clear why Jewish voters by and large don't just lean democratic but do find a home there that's in keeping with their values. Now there's a lot to be said about the implications of the last year and the current war and how that's affected things. So we can get to that.
Speaker 3:But I want to lay that out at the outset. So the flip side of that is that the Republicans have also had a consistent level of support over decades from the low to upper 20s of Jewish voters.
Speaker 1:What does that mean? Sorry, low to upper 20s, 20% of Jewish voters.
Speaker 3:I've seen numbers ranging from about 22 to 28. And the current election is consistent with that. The support for Trump among Jewish voters has not increased. The support for Harris has decreased and there are more voters who are undecided at the current time. You know.
Speaker 3:So you might ask the question why this segment of Jewish voters consistently supports the Republicans despite as I've laid out in a number of columns in TJI the really encouraging of anti-Semitism by Trump and those adjacent to him. You know, some of it revolves around your view of the importance of Israel and what it means to be supportive of Israel. Similar to here in Australia, there are Jewish voters who believe a blank check to the Israeli government, in this case to the Netanyahu government, to do what it wants to do is the litmus test and they vote Republicans because they believe that blank check is there. And on the other hand, there are those who believe in promoting those same democratic values and the rule of law and the power of the judiciary within Israel and those are less likely to be Republican to the Republican Jewish voters also. Many of them, I believe, have the same historic allegiance to the Republicans as many general voters, which is that for generations, going back to the late 19th century, the Republican Party was seen as the party of business and that's where the business-friendly legislation will come from.
Speaker 3:And you see this right up into the Trump administration, where Trump dismantled all kinds of regulations. When Reagan came in, his famous line was the scariest seven words are I'm from the government and I'm here to help. So they want to limit government's intrusion into the lives of the people, but what that's really about is limiting the government's intrusion into the prerogatives of business to pollute, to take advantage of their workers. Republicans oppose all legislation that would make it easier to unionize. Legislation that would make it easier to unionize.
Speaker 2:So what I'm taking away from what you're saying, dan, is that for the most part, american Jews have allied themselves with the Democratic Party. Around 70% of Jewish vote has gone to the Democrats. That's remained pretty consistent. But there's always been around 20 to 30% that have sided with the Republicans, but they've primarily sided with Republicans because of that strong belief in free markets, in business. You'll see this in the 1920s as well, right, right. So those numbers have remained pretty constant and you're that's you know before there was Israel, yes, yes, before the whole question of Israel and then the Trump factor, which we're going to come back to.
Speaker 2:I'm interested in your take on the demographics of American Jewry because, unlike here in Australia, where modern orthodoxy or traditional Judaism, however you want to define it, is the largest part of Australian Jewry and reform and progressive Judaism is the much smaller part of the population, it's the reverse in the US. So reform and progressive Jews account for a much larger proportion of the American Jewish population. Orthodox Jews are much smaller. Has that shaped or had an influence, do you think at all, on the way that American Jews vote?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it does, or it reflects a certain mindset, because if you have more liberal views about religion, you're likely to have more liberal views about politics. An interesting poll showed that the less Jews went to synagogue, the stronger their support of the Democrats. Not that people who go to synagogue even once a week don't by and large of the Democrats. Not that people who go to synagogue even once a week don't, by and large, support the Democrats. And it also found that Orthodox Jews in the US support the Republicans by a slight majority. You go to conservative, they're supporting Democrats by some majority. You go to reform. It's very significant support for Democrats. So those do track.
Speaker 3:In terms of religious viewpoint, I'm not sure really how being orthodox impacts your view on the importance of Israel. You would know that as well as I would Israel. You would know that as well as I would, because, again, I'm not exposed too much to that viewpoint or to friends or colleagues who are going to explain it to me. Maybe you guys will, but you know it's a phenomenon that they support the Republicans and presumably it has something to do with Israel.
Speaker 1:I hear mixed things about Orthodox Jews in Israel, because sometimes I hear that the ultra-Orthodox Jews do not support Israel at all because they're waiting for the Moshiach, for the Messiah, to come.
Speaker 3:That's right. Yeah, and that goes back to before the founding of Israel, to the Zionist movement, where they you know as well as you know, the Bund for other reasons, the opposite reason really there were camps within Judaism. That other reasons, the opposite reason really there were camps within Judaism that were opposed to the establishment of Israel. And yes, there was the ultra-Orthodox who were part of that.
Speaker 2:Dan. It also seems as if this group has been persuaded that their interests are best served with Trump, and he has this sort of quite unusual pull with Hasidic Jews in the United States, doesn't he?
Speaker 3:Yeah, which is strange because during his presidency. Hasidim are readily recognisable by anti-Semites and yet the increase under Trump, and then again in the last year since the war began, of anti-Semitic incidents in the US is just. It's not surprising, but it's astounding and it's horrific. You know, I can't really explain that phenomenon, I don't know much.
Speaker 2:And also because he's been on the record as having, you know, let's say, very loose attitudes towards women, and he has the veneer of someone who is not modest and someone who does not have much reverence for tradition. I mean, he's a pretty vulgar character. So you would think that the more religious you are actually, the less inclined you would be to support him.
Speaker 3:But in the case of Hasidim in the United States it's not the case. President Mark Milley and John Kelly have come out or been quoted one was in Bob Woodward's book as saying that Trump is an outright fascist and will be attempting to run a fascist-style government if reelected. And that's pretty stark for Jews, because we know where that leads and we've seen where it leads and we that. You know on January 6th there was a lot of anti-Semitism displayed at the Capitol, riot and insurrection and the highlighting of Jewish legislators as targets. You know that's going on. And then you know the crazy rhetoric about controlling the weather. You know it was enough on. And then you know the crazy rhetoric about controlling the weather. You know it was enough for us to control Hollywood, I think. But you know, to control the weather, I guess Joshua could kind of do it. I guess Noah wasn't circumcised so he could not stop the rain.
Speaker 2:Anyway, so you have written for the Jewish Independent in recent years about Trump and his MAGA movement and about the anti-Semitic elements within the movement and the rise in anti-Semitic incidents that have coincided with the rise of Maga. And yet, on the other hand, Dan, during his time as president, we saw unprecedented moves in support of Israel's government I'm thinking here of his administration recognising Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. This is quite a paradox, isn't it that, on the one hand, he and his administration moved behind Israel in quite unprecedented ways, Yet on the other hand, the political movement around him seems to have a real problem with anti-Semitism. How do you square that? Can you help us make sense of that paradox?
Speaker 3:No, I can't.
Speaker 3:And it was interesting because I was looking earlier at an article about a speech that Doug Emhoff, kamala's husband, who is Jewish, gave to a Jewish audience and he expressed his bafflement at this phenomenon because Trump is clearly dangerous for the Jews in the US and the question of whether what he's doing for Israel is better for the Jews in some sense and he certainly maintains that you know, jews are crazy and that's his word to not support him because of all he's done for Israel but is unilateral recognition of Jerusalem as the capital, which has been for decades part of the pathway to a two-state solution?
Speaker 3:Is that the best road to peace and security for Israel? I mean, that's a debate I don't think we're going to have this morning, but it's a debatable contention. Is accords or normalization of relations with Arab nations that's done by leaving the Palestinians entirely out of the picture better for Israel and better for the safety of Jews? We know that Hamas has been a present threat to Israel for the last 15 years, but it's very clear that a major part of the race on death road for the attacks a year ago were to upend the pending normalization with the Saudis, and that worked, and it worked to the detriment of Jews in Israel and of Jews in the diaspora.
Speaker 3:So did Trump do us all a favor? Not by the Abraham Accords in principle, but by the way they were done, by leaving out any acknowledgement of the rights of the Palestinians, and you know. Those, I think, are good questions. And to get back to Trump, though, he's not interested in people, he's interested in power. So he connects with Netanyahu as an agent of power, the same way he does with Orban or Putin or Xi, who he respects because of their power. And during his presidency, we saw how he treated Macron or other NATO leaders disdainfully and disrespect. Know. So Netanyahu, he's in his friend group, which is not necessarily for me, you know. It's not a group of people who I respect or who I think are good for humanity in terms of their values and their implementation of their regimes of power.
Speaker 1:I'm ashamed to admit I don't't know. You mentioned one name, orban.
Speaker 3:Viktor Orban is president of Hungary, who has been. You know, he's sort of quasi-authoritarian, he gets elected with 90% of the vote and has done a lot to diminish civil rights, civil liberties, democratic processes within Hungary.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, did you know that, dash?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think it's quite apt that you raise Orban, because he is his movement. He also has a political movement around him and the allegation that's often made against his movement is that that is an anti-Semitic political force and responsible for the kind of revival of anti-Semitism in Hungary. Yet he's also a pal of Netanyahu's and the two have quite a curious relationship. So again, there's quite a strong parallel case between Trump and Orban, parallel case between Trump and Orban. I guess it's not surprising that Trump seems to have great affection for Orban, because this support for Israel, for the current Israeli government, goes hand in hand with a sort of a brand of anti-Semitism within their own political movement domestically. That's right.
Speaker 3:And again to be shocked and dismayed. You know just a passing familiarity with this history of 1930s Germany. We know that business leaders, including Jewish business leaders, you know, celebrated the rise of Hitler initially as good for business as bringing a kind of order and basis for them to succeed.
Speaker 1:What Can you say that again it did succeed? Sorry, did I hear that right?
Speaker 3:This is Jewish history, tammy, we need to send you back to school?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we do. I'm ashamed to admit.
Speaker 3:Do they teach that in school?
Speaker 1:They did not teach that in my Jewish high school. Sorry, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa Again for anyone who's tuned out.
Speaker 3:You know, so I don't want to overstate it, but, just as you know, in the US currently, you know, there were a minority of Jews who looked at this guy and he's like, well, yeah, we don't like some of what he says, but he's good for business, and you know he's good for business right up into the door to the gas chamber. Now, I'm not saying Trump's going to be building gas chambers, but some of his followers would like to, you know, and he's encouraging, you know. He's encouraged the anti-Semites all along the way, and to me it's just, it's really horrific that any Jew supports Trump. Even if you have traditional Republican values, there has to be a place where you draw the line.
Speaker 1:Dash, did you know that that some Jews originally supported Hitler?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, mind blown Tammy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, you're a historian.
Speaker 3:That's why we're here, Tammy, to fill in the gaps in your education.
Speaker 1:And my education and my peers. Can I just like just as an exercise before our listeners spiral into a like full-blown panic attack. Let's say Trump gets elected. Are there any glimmers? Are there any kind of positives for the jewish community?
Speaker 3:no, there you go.
Speaker 3:There are not.
Speaker 3:So the heritage foundation, which is a long-standing conservative think tank in the S, been very influential going back to the Reagan presidency, has done all kinds of policy proposals that have been put forward and adopted by various Republican administrations or congresses, and they had developed something this year called Project 2025, which is an 800-page document that outlines what the next Trump presidency should be like, and a couple dozen of the people who are closely involved in this as authors are former Trump administration officials or allies former Trump administration officials or allies and when you read through it, it's basically a foundation for Christian nationalism in the US, so that it would be a government based on Christian principles, with all that entails.
Speaker 3:That's what's coming. And no, that's not good for Jews because it means we go into I mean, we're a minority in the US, as here, but we're not a minority with diminished rights, but that could be coming and the ability to practice different religions, to have religious expression in public spaces, to not have Christianity thrown in your face everywhere you go that would be eliminated from the American scene. But then things like gay marriage will go by the way under that plan, like gay marriage will go by the way, under that plan, and a whole host of things that we'd like to take for granted as settled, but are not.
Speaker 2:Any groups, any organizations, any individuals that have declared themselves to be opponents of Donald Trump can expect that they'll be within his sights.
Speaker 3:That's right, and he has said that he will use the Justice Department to go after his political opponents, that he will bring them into court and, if he can, he will send them to prison, and that includes his favourite people like Chuck Schumer and Adam Schiff and Jamie Raskin.
Speaker 2:American Jewish religious leaders for those who don't know who have taken a very strong.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like me I was going to say, is Chuck Schumer related to Amy Schumer?
Speaker 3:They're cousins, I believe.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay.
Speaker 3:He's the Senate majority leader, so he's currently in charge of the US Senate.
Speaker 1:Okay, as someone who considers myself an empathetic person sometimes hyper-empathetic and I did go to drama school and we did do exercises where we would take on a character and try and get into their head Can you help me try and get into the head of an American Jew who is voting for Trump? Because from where I'm sitting now, I'm just thinking okay, well, if you're voting for Trump, then you're pro-Netanyahu, homophobic, don't really care about reproductive rights of women, and I feel like that might offend some people. Some people might be shouting that's not me. Are you both of you open to giving me something else to work with, or is it that dire?
Speaker 2:So, tammy, I'm going to slip into the character of the American Jewish voter who might be casting their vote for Trump in a couple of weeks and I'm going to try and adopt what I think might be the motivation and the mindset for some of them, and then I'm interested to hear how Dan responds to that. So you mentioned AOC, a member of the squad, the group of US congressmen and women who are in the Democratic Party, very much of the left of the party and allied on a range of civil rights issues, seem to be pushing the party more in a progressive direction, and also virulent opponents, apparently, of Israel and regularly take up the case of Palestinian people, some virulent, some not virulent. But the way that they are perceived by this American voter, this American Jewish voter who is going to vote for Trump, is that the Democratic Party has an increasingly real problem with anti-Semitism, and they would say that this is not a party that doesn't represent my values anymore. It's a party that I can't see guaranteeing long-term security and support for Israel. Sure, you've had Biden in this current administration.
Speaker 2:Sure, harris is talking about a continuation of support for Israel, but I can see in the Democratic Party a weakening of that. I can see a growing chorus of pro-Palestinian activists that will take over this party. It's going to be a more dangerous place for Jewish people in the Middle East, and I'm also seeing that that's going to create safety and insecurity for my own Jewish people here in the United States. So I don't like Trump personally. I've never you know perhaps voted Republican before, or certainly didn't vote for Trump previously. There's no indication from him that he is going to be reversing any of this support for Israel.
Speaker 1:Perhaps they just think reproductive rights and gay marriage and all those other things that we hold dear actually don't matter if we can't exist at all.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and in fact I will argue that the opposite is true. And the first thing is we need to get down to facts. So US policy toward the Middle East has been fairly consistent, going back generations. There have been two times when arms shipments have been held up to force or put pressure on Israel, once by Reagan, once by Obama Equal opportunity. But let's look at what happened under Biden.
Speaker 3:When the war began, biden went to Israel. He sent Antony Blinken, who's there now, is there this week. His Secretary of State has had more than half a dozen trips, has had the Secretary of Defense, the National Security Advisor, to Israel, to Qatar, uae, saudi Arabia, egypt, all the players working for peace, for the resolution of the conflict. It's just from my perspective, it's amazing. And when you think about, well, what has any other world leader done? Nothing, nothing. You know. Macron has made a speech somewhere else, here or there. They go to the UN and make speeches, but that level of engagement to try and bring the parties together and find a path to peace is just outstanding. At the same time, he sent a naval presence, increased naval presence, in the Eastern Mediterranean, as basically understood to be as a warning to Iran not to escalate. And you saw that when Iran did attack Israel, the US joined Israel in defeating that attack. Attack Israel, the US joined Israel in defeating that attack. And that, the latest you know, a couple of weeks ago, the US delivered a anti-missile presence in Israel itself along with, I think it's, 100 military personnel to operate it or to work with the Israelis to operate it.
Speaker 3:So to think that any other administration has or would do more than that, and the fact that Biden hasn't succeeded in brokering peace has more to do with the ambitions of Netanyahu and of Sinwar, which apparently his colleagues have now inherited, but people who are not well served by peace, and certainly you know we can, I think, agree that you know Hamas has been. You know we may differ about the Israeli stance, but certainly Hamas has not been shown an interest in establishing a ceasefire. But Biden has done everything he could, I think an amazing effort and deserves a lot of credit for that. And there's no reason to think you know there's a lot of discussion in US media in the last few weeks of well, to what extent is a Harris administration a continuation of Biden's and where would she differ? But there's no reason to think she would differ in this respect.
Speaker 3:The other part of your question, though, has to do with well, so A I would reject the idea that somehow Israel is safer under Trump and, given that Trump is such a chaotic personality that he lacks discipline and that he does not play well with others, that the possibility of things getting much worse in terms of conflict are always present with him. But then you talk about how this affects the safety of Jews in America, and this goes back to what we're discussing before. If you're bringing anti-Semites into your, you know what, in the US, mar-a-lago, would be called the Southern White House, where he would be going to hang out and dine with prominent anti-Semites like Nick Fuentes and Kanye West, and you know there's talk of him bringing Steve Bannon, who's a major QAnon proponent, and a lot of people in those circles, and people who would be capped for positions under this 2025 plan are anti-Semitic, and I don't have direct exposure to this. I only know through reporting. But apparently you know, if you go into the right wing spheres of social media, the anti-Semitism is rampant. I don't see it because I don't go, I don't use social media, but you know apparently.
Speaker 2:Well, Dan, can you perhaps briefly tell us about the strange and disturbing case of Marjorie Taylor Greene?
Speaker 3:Okay, well, she's enough job. You know she's been QAnon all along. She believes in all kinds of conspiracy theories and she's largely a self promoter. It's about her. I don't know what her merch is like, I haven't been to her store but I'm sure she's doing very well. And she says things that I assume she believes them, but they're provocative and grab headlines, like about the Rothschild space lasers and et cetera. And you know who controls the weather. You know, like that a lot of good fun was made of. If the Jews controlled the weather, would they really target Florida? You know the answer is well, of course not, because there are so many Jews there. Anyway, it sounds silly, it sounds laughable. You know she's dangerous because she's part of the extreme of that party. They have had enough members over the last couple of years to kind of hold the feet to the fire of the Republican leadership. You know that, for example, might have wanted to compromise with the Democrats on certain things. And oh no, you can never treat with the enemy, in their view.
Speaker 2:Anyway Dash. But yeah, I raise her because she's a member of Congress representing a district in Georgia and very likely, if Trump was elected, could quite possibly see her star rise. Oh yeah, absolutely Rewarded for her loyalty to him because she has been steadfast in her loyalty to him when others have abandoned him in recent years. And she is just one of many of these quite odious individuals that espouse some of these anti-Semitic views.
Speaker 1:I just did a quick Google search of Marjorie Taylor Greene, member of the US House of Representatives from Georgia's 14th district.
Speaker 3:So, Tammy, you need to keep up with my occasional columns and the Jewish Independent.
Speaker 1:I read all of them and then you have all this background.
Speaker 2:That was the stimulus for this conversation today. So, to be fair, you wrote about Marjorie Taylor Greene a couple of years ago. That was yes, so it's fair. You wrote about Marjorie Taylor Greene a couple of years ago.
Speaker 3:That was yes, so it's easily forgotten by now. It's a lot of content.
Speaker 1:I read all of your columns, Dan, but do I retain all the information that I read?
Speaker 3:No, let me just say I don't retain all my columns. I have to look back, Dash.
Speaker 2:So, dan, look, it's incredibly difficult to predict anything about US politics at the moment, and very difficult to predict anything about Donald Trump. But let's have a go, let's get the crystal ball out. If he does win office on November 5, what specific shifts might we see regarding Israel and the Middle East? What specific policy shifts, if any, would you expect from Trump policy?
Speaker 3:shifts, if any, would you expect from Trump? Well, trump says he will end the Gaza war immediately. He doesn't say how. He has said there should not be a ceasefire. Israel should win. He doesn't define what that means or what the US role would be. That said, you know, certainly I believe, that as long as Netanyahu gives Trump the respect that Trump demands and I think Bibi knows how to do that that Trump will support him and his government in their objectives.
Speaker 3:And how that plays out is hard to say. Yeah, I don't think we'll see anything helpful for Jews domestically in the US. You know there won't be any. Trump will decry anti-Semitism. He won't do anything about it. You know he won't fund agencies that want to look at civil rights abusives or the like, or hate crimes. In fact, he will defund them, and I believe he did in his first administration. And I think, as we've discussed already, the rhetoric will get worse and the actions that follow the rhetoric will become more deadly, and we should not end the discussion with the word deadly. So I will invite another word, if either of you has one.
Speaker 2:Deep down. What does your intuition tell you about what we might expect?
Speaker 1:Deep down in your kishkas, what are they gurgling?
Speaker 3:My kishkas are gurgling for Kamala and all the polls say it's close and there's been a lot written about whether you should or shouldn't take these polls seriously. At this point, I think it's going to be close and I think that it looks like the numbers will fall her way, as they did for Biden four years ago. I think the Republicans are going to go crazy. They're already going crazy. There's already charges of cheating before the voting's even started.
Speaker 3:I mean, it started months ago the allegations and efforts to stop votes from being counted, stop votes from being certified, all kinds of things, delays, obstruction, that all is going to go happen but hopefully the rule of law and the strength of democratic institutions will prevail. But you know, I'm certainly not 100% on that.
Speaker 1:Let us pray bizrat Hashem or whoever we pray to.
Speaker 2:Dan, we look forward to seeing your analysis of it all in the Jewish Independent. I think we can expect to see a piece from you in the days after the election, so keep an eye out on our website. Dan will be serving us up his take on the results, which will probably, at that stage, be still in doubt, but nevertheless we'll get some analysis from you coming up.
Speaker 3:It'll be in doubt and it'll be a very exciting and scary form of death, so we can look forward to that.
Speaker 2:Good hanging out with you Likewise. Thanks, Dan.
Speaker 1:Thanks for coming in.
Speaker 2:That was our conversation with Dan Coleman, and that's it for another week.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to. A Shame to Admit with me, Tammy Sussman and Dash Lawrence.
Speaker 2:This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King and theme music by Donovan Janks.
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Speaker 2:And don't forget that some of the articles we mentioned today can be found in the show notes. So find our show notes and you'll see some of Dan's articles there Also. Don't forget to get in touch with us if there's something that you're ashamed to admit.
Speaker 1:Or something that you're not ashamed to admit, that you should be ashamed to admit.
Speaker 2:You can do that via the contact form on the Jewish Independent website or by emailing ashamed at thejewishindependentcomau.
Speaker 1:As always. Thanks so much for your support and look out for us next week. Thank you.