Ashamed to Admit
Are you ashamed to admit you're not across the big issues and events affecting Jews in Australia, Israel and around the Jewish world?
In this new podcast from online publication The Jewish Independent, Your Third Cousin Tami Sussman and TJI's Dashiel Lawrence tackle the week's 'Chewiest and Jewiest' topics.
Ashamed to Admit
Episode #24 ALICE ZASLAVSKY will not "yuck your yum"
The exuberant Alice Zaslavsky graces the ATA studio this week to chat about her new TV show ‘A bite to eat with Alice’, new book ‘Salad for days’ , her (hot) ancestor’s controversial cookbook and food shaming. Plus an angry letter and an apology.
Special thanks to: www.fieldtofork.net.au
Articles relevant to today’s episode:
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/conversations-with-alice-in-the-universal-language-of-food
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/i-was-called-both-a-shiksa-and-a-raving-zionist
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/hate-on-becoming-a-bad-jew
Events mentioned in today’s episode:
Sydney - www.shalom.edu.au/event/jewish-roots-festival/
Melb - www.jewishmuseum.com.au/events/what-makes-jewish-music-jewish-a-panel-discussion
Email your feedback and voice memos here: ashamed@thejewishindependent.com.au
Subscribe to The Jewish Independent's bi-weekly newsletter: jewishindependent.com.au
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Are you interested in issues affecting Jews in Australia, the United States, the Middle East, former Soviet Union and the world at large, but a little bit ashamed that you're barely keeping up to date. You just don't have enough prerequisite knowledge to hold your own at family dinners.
Speaker 2:Well, you've come to the right place. I'm Dash Lawrence and in this podcast series, your embarrassing third cousin, tammy Swissman, and I call on experts and each other to address all the ignorant questions that you may be too ashamed to ask.
Speaker 1:Join us as we have a go at cutting through some seriously chewy and dewy topics. Welcome to the Jewish Independent Podcast, Ashamed to Admit.
Speaker 2:A go at cutting through some seriously chewy and dewy topics. Welcome to the Jewish Independent Podcast. A Shame to Admit. Hello everyone, I'm Dash.
Speaker 1:Lawrence, executive Director at the Jewish Independent, and I'm your concerned friend Tammy Sussman Dash. Are you okay?
Speaker 2:Not really Not right now. We're recording this on Thursday, the 7th of November, so less than 24 hours since the votes started counting in the US presidential elections, and it's all a bit much at the moment. I'm just letting it all sink in, I'm just trying to process the enormity of it all.
Speaker 1:Are you surprised?
Speaker 2:Not really. No, no, I always thought it was going to be a 50-50 election. I always assumed that he would be much more competitive than maybe people had given him credit for or anticipated. I'm surprised by the scale of his win. I mean, they're still obviously counting the votes and it's possible that she'll claw back some ground in the popular vote at least. But yeah, like to have won decisively with the electoral college votes, to have won the popular vote, to have then also potentially won the House and the Senate, is pretty significant. That's an emphatic victory. I'm surprised by the extent of the victory.
Speaker 1:I'm not surprised that he's on his way back to the White House by the extent of the victory, I'm not surprised that he's on his way back to the White House.
Speaker 2:Have you checked in with.
Speaker 1:TJI contributor and friend of the pod, dan Coleman, who was on two weeks ago, who predicted he felt it in his kishkas that Kamala was going to win.
Speaker 2:No, I haven't.
Speaker 1:At the start of that episode with Dan, he referenced a former episode that we had with Peter Savodnik from the Free Press, who said that the Jews were politically homeless and Dan asserted that he disagreed with that. And I saw something that actually Itay Flesher posted to his Instagram another friend of the pod, tji's Jerusalem correspondent and he showed an infographic and, of course, we're all getting our news and information from infographics these days. Nevertheless, the infographic showed that 77% I think it was of American Jews voted for Kamala or voted Democrat.
Speaker 2:Right, okay, yeah, I feel like I'd want a bit more data on that.
Speaker 2:I feel like it's a bit too early to be able to comprehensively say that American Jews voted for Kamala Harris, but there will also be American Jews that voted for Trump, and there will be people in the Jewish community here in Australia who will see this as a great victory and will be really delighted by the result, and I'm sure there'll be, you know, jewish people around the world in other communities that feel that this is a good thing.
Speaker 2:So I don't want to just assume that everyone, either listening to this podcast or everyone in the Jewish communities that we're speaking, to share Dan Coleman or my version. You know what this outcome looks like. I expect that there'll be some people for whom this is a good thing and they'll see this as potentially an opportunity for Israel to maintain its ascendancy, for Netanyahu to be really given carte blanche to do what he likes now, and if they are liquid supporters, if they are Netanyahu supporters or even sympathisers, then the return of Trump to the presidency is a positive thing. But, yeah, it's quite possible that there's a big chunk of American jury who are not in a great place right now either a big chunk of American jury who are not in a great place right now either.
Speaker 1:Okay, so if you're a listener who voted for Trump, then muzzle toff, I guess. And if you didn't, and you've come here for some distraction, for a lighthearted window of respite, then we are here for you because we have a super fun and thoughtful episode today with a really, really special guest. But before we get there, dash, we have an angry letter for you to read to Kitsch Klezmer Music. You haven't read this letter yet.
Speaker 2:Okay, can I just say, tammy, like it's the day after the US election and it feels like it's a bit too early to be processing more anger. You know, I'm feeling a bit fragile at the moment. I'm feeling a bit raw, a bit vulnerable.
Speaker 1:Ah, you don't worry, it's directed towards me, oh, okay.
Speaker 2:Oh great, okay, in that case, let's get stuck into it. And was it sent to you personally?
Speaker 1:Yes, okay, have you got it.
Speaker 2:All right, oh, here we go. Okay, oh boy, it's never a good sign when the email begins not with the first name but with the full name. So here we go. The email reads Dear Tammy Sussman, I have just finished listening to episode 23, and although I enjoyed most of it, I was quite disappointed to hear you refer to a fellow student from your university days as not looking Jewish. What does it mean to look Jewish in 2024? I thought we were past this. Do better, sincerely, tammy Sussman. Oh, okay, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I wrote the email to myself.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Bit of background for those who missed last week's episode. By all means catch up on it. But I shared a story about feeling the pressure to be a representative of the Jews in spaces that aren't Jewish, and I mentioned how, when I went to drama school, there was another student who was Jewish but who was self-hating Jew, and I said, and he passed for not Jewish, he didn't look very Jewish. And then I listened to that episode before we sent it off to Nick to get edited and I said I actually want to cut that bit because it's 2024 and I've got friends who are Jewish, who are black, who are brown, who are not going to go through the color spectrum, because then I'll, you know, dig myself into a deeper hole, but basically there are so many ways to look Jewish. So I did tell our editor to cut that out and he didn't, and then I didn't do the final listen through properly.
Speaker 1:So I'm not shifting the blame onto Nick, like it's a little bit Nick's fault, but it's also my fault. But I actually thought, well, maybe this is an opportunity for me to really check myself, like even me, who is a really open-minded in inverted commas, woke Jew in my novel, my middle grade novel so that Happened where the protagonist's best friend is a Chinese-Australian Jew. When this issue comes up, I made an effort to really shine a light on that and the discrimination that people who don't look like the stereotypical Ashkenazi pale-skinned, hook-nosed Jew face. Even I still slip up and say, oh, that person doesn't look Jewish. I thought I'd bring this to today's episode, not so that you could say, tammy, it's okay and give me a pat on the shoulder, but just to open up discussion in the homes of our listeners.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I'm not going to pat you on the shoulder. I can't anyway, because, yes, I'm in Melbourne. I think it's a good thing that you kept it in, because now we're having this conversation and I think it's something that we can come back to on the podcast in the coming weeks. We've got a couple of guests actually I think we can introduce into the studios to talk more about, I guess, the multiplicity of Jewish identity. Well done for calling it out today and raising it. I'm sure there are plenty of things that I have said along the way over the course of our 23 odd episodes that I probably would redact in retrospect, but always good to reflect on how you could have said things better or what you would say if you had your time over again.
Speaker 1:I haven't had anyone reach out to me, but I just want to say that if you did hear that and recoil a little bit, or I made you feel like you had to justify your Jewish identity or existence, or I just made you feel smaller in any way, then I'm sorry and I will do better. Dash, it's a really exciting time to be a Jew in Australia.
Speaker 2:Yeah, really.
Speaker 1:Despite what everyone's saying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a nice spin on it.
Speaker 1:There are so many great events and festivals happening around town at the moment. In your neck of the woods, there's a panel discussion taking place on the 20th of November at the Jewish Museum of Australia In celebration of the diverse expressions of Jewish music across time, place and style. The museum's inviting you to join the conversation around the compelling question what makes Jewish music Jewish? This enriching panel discussion will be part of a secret core, the Jewish Museum of Australia's upcoming exhibition that explores the deep connections between Judaism, music, rhythm and movement, and this particular conversation is moderated by acclaimed musician Joshua Mosher, and the panel will feature renowned voices in Jewish musical traditions, including Dolph Farkas, representing religious music, tommy Kalinsky on Yiddish and Klezmer, and Simon Starr, sharing insight into Israeli music. We will leave a link to this event taking place on the 20th of November in the show notes.
Speaker 2:Looking forward to that one. Well, tammy, it's not just Melbourne that's getting in on all of the festivities and all of the Jewish cultural fun in your city. In Sydney, coming up, on the 17th of November, shalom will be hosting the Jewish Roots Festival, a new and vibrant celebration of Jewish culture explored through nature, sustainability, arts and music. The Jewish Roots Festival is filled with all sorts of activities for individuals who are looking to deepen their connection with their heritage, their community and, of course, the natural world. So, to our listeners who are thinking they might head along to that one, you'll find live music, dance, meditation, hands-on workshops and thought-provoking speakers, market and food stalls, all in a vibrant, inclusive natural setting, with a dedicated kids area, which we love, tammy.
Speaker 1:We do. I'm really excited about the succulent potting and decorating colour board making love me. Some live music. Our Sydney listeners will be pleased to know that it will be in an eastern suburbs location. Okay, you'll be fine. We will leave a link to the Jewish Roots Festival, presented by Adamama, supported by Shalom, in our show notes.
Speaker 1:Okay, dash, we're 14 episodes into our second season and I had the privilege of seeing your cute punim in real life in Sydney over the weekend when you were here for the Jewish International Film Festival and during this time we discussed how we were going to do these episodes moving forward, and you suggested that perhaps we split some of the interviews sometimes, you know, for maximum efficiency. And, dash, I thought that your idea, like most of the ideas that you bring to production meetings, was a fantastic one. So I was like, yeah, cool, we've got a famous guest coming into the studio on Wednesday. I'll do that interview by myself. I've got this. I've been doing this for 24 episodes. So I was super pumped, super ready to record my interview with Alice Zaslavsky on my own, but what ended up happening is that there was a little glitch and so about five minutes at the start of our conversation did not get recorded.
Speaker 2:Really.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You sure about that?
Speaker 1:But I want you to remain calm, because what I'm going to do is I'm going to play the first five minutes, then the interview is going to stop and I'm going to fill you in about exactly what Alice and I spoke about for the five minutes that were not recorded.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:And then we're going to continue to play the interview. Okay, are you ready? Okay, he thinks he's ready. First of all, though, we need to properly introduce the one and only Alice Saslavsky. Need to properly introduce the one and only Alice.
Speaker 2:Saslavsky. Alice is an Australian author, food educator and television host known for her passion for making food literacy accessible and engaging. She is the author of popular books like In Praise of Veg and her most recent book Salad for Days, which have been celebrated for their colourful, vegetable-focused approach to cooking. Known for her dynamic presence, alice has hosted segments on television and radio and has recently been handed her own show, a Bite to Eat with Alice, which you can find on the ABC. Her work encourages people of all ages to explore the joys of cooking and eating well. She is an absolute delight. Enjoy Tammy's chat with Alice Zaslavsky.
Speaker 1:Alice Aslavsky, I need to ask you right off the bat are you okay? Because I've seen your schedule and it's stressing me out. You've just released a book, salad for Days, and you've got a new TV show, a Bite to Eat with Alice, on the ABC, and that, accidentally or on purpose, coincided.
Speaker 3:That was absolutely not on purpose, tammy. I wouldn't wish this schedule on anyone. But you know what? It doesn't rain, it pours, and I'm just making hay while the sun shines. How many metaphors can I include in that?
Speaker 1:Please, we'll keep going. I've noticed in the promos for both your book and your television show, you wear these outstanding, flamboyant outfits, usually with a lot of fruit and veg. That's why I've brought this t-shirt to the podcast today. This shirt it has some mushrooms on it, but clearly you're a big fan of vegetables because, of course, you had a cookbook which you released in 2020, called In Praise of Veg. I thought that I would start this interview with an offering of a Yiddish proverb about vegetables, and I found a few, but I found one that I think will resonate with you. That Yiddish proverb translates to resonate with you, and that Yiddish proverb translates to better a small onion in joy than a large melon in sorrow. And I thought of you as soon as I read that, because I think that you're actually a large melon, but in joy and I don't mean physically, I mean you have big melon energy.
Speaker 3:I like that Big melon energy Particularly. You know, I certainly wouldn't call myself melancholy, You're so good.
Speaker 1:You don't stop with the projects and the puns. Okay, so Dash. This is the point where the software stopped recording. But I didn't know. So during this time I told Alice that I was ashamed to admit that in my family an interesting salad was some chopped up cucumber, carrots, tomatoes, pickles, topped off with chicken, like charcoal chicken, chicken shop chicken. Sorry, mum.
Speaker 2:That sounds like a great meal.
Speaker 1:And Alice said she would never yuck my yum she's not about yucking anyone's yum and she wrote her book Salad for Days not to diss the salads that we all grew up with, but to enhance the flavours that we all grew up with, but to enhance the flavors that we're comfortable with. And she zoomed into the Jewish community and she said we're so blessed to have had our salad palates enhanced by the Mizrahi community, by the Safaris, by the North African Jews. That's the point where I started recording again, so we'll get straight back into the interview now.
Speaker 3:I grew up with lots of little dishes on the table, lots of veg forward dishes on the table alongside my breakfast, my lunch and my dinner, and I think that everybody can stand to eat in that way, because it means you have more variety on the table. It also means that you can pick and choose. If you're feeding smaller animals, household members who perhaps aren't as familiar with certain foods, you can put the smaller dishes on the table and over time you can expose them to all of those different flavors and colors and they'll see you eating them and they'll think I'm going to taste this mushroom and see what that's like.
Speaker 1:Do you know who else we have to thank for interesting salads in the Jewish community of Australia?
Speaker 3:Yotamotolengi.
Speaker 1:No, I was going to say South Africans, because I don't know if this was the experience with you, but when there was a big influx of South Africans to Sydney all of a sudden, we'd go to our friends' houses and we'd be served a spinach salad with strawberries and sugar-coated almonds with balsamic dressing and sugar-coated almonds with balsamic dressing and it blew our minds.
Speaker 3:I have a strawberry salad in salad for days. No sugar-coated almonds, sadly. Instead a parmesan crisp that kind of sits on the top like Eliza Doolittle's hat in my Fair Lady. But the strawberry and balsamic is such a classic 90s combination. So I'm not surprised that that was a feature of your youth, your leafy eastern suburbs youth. I can see it now.
Speaker 1:I wasn't deep east, but this interview isn't about me, it's about you. Okay, your television show A Bite to Eat with Alice on ABC features special guests and the premise of the show is that they give you a list of likes and dislikes and then you create some dishes or menu based on that. Is that right?
Speaker 3:Yeah, around about.
Speaker 1:You've had Pia Miranda, anthony Kalia, lizzie Hu on the show. So far, I've noticed there are no Jews in that lineup, and is that because Jews have too many dietary requirements?
Speaker 3:You know, actually there are a lot of dietary requirements. Almost everybody has some kind of dietary that I'm catering to and I think, having so many Jewish friends, I treat dietries as a welcome challenge. I don't think of it as an impediment or an inconvenience, because everybody's kind of dealing with things right. So why should we exclude people just because they can't eat lactose or specifically, or, you know, because they're gluten free? But there is a Jew coming, a Jew that was actually a guest on this podcast, you know, because there aren't many of us go-to Jews.
Speaker 1:Are you allowed to reveal who that Jew is? Oh, who is it? Can I guess? Yes, it's John Safran. It's definitely John Safran, of course it is.
Speaker 3:John. You know like I think what I love about the show is it's very loosey-goosey and it is literally like coming around to a Yiddish mama's house and just having a little bit of a kvetch and a kvel and a and a fres, and John tried to come in through the window like he's the only one, and I think that really encapsulates his whole personality, and the way that his brain thinks is very different to energy, and whereas you have big melon energy, he has small onion energy. He does Small onion enjoy.
Speaker 1:That also came out really differently to how I intended it to. I've also noticed that with the guests on the show there's a bit of trafe. There's a bit of non-kosher food. Now, I'm not ashamed to admit, I enjoy a bit of a prawn here and there, a bit of huzz, once a fortnight maybe, but I would have no idea how to prepare it. So how did you know how to prepare all these things?
Speaker 3:Oh, I do feel, treif, shamed, do you, by me, but I think that's just my own kind of overtime built up scar tissue. You know, I remember so when I was on MasterChef almost 13 years ago, I cooked pork. I had to. It was a challenge, and at the time I'd been invited to speak at my school and then that episode came out and I was quietly told that maybe we should hold off a little bit. And I was quietly told that maybe we should hold off a little bit.
Speaker 3:So you know, that was actually how I first met John Safran, because that weekend I was at the Local which is like a pub, a bar, in Carlisle Street in Balaclava, and John Safran was sitting in the corner and I just like barged on over to him, like I knew him, and told him this story. And he's like, oh, you should come on Sunday Night, saffron. You should come on Sunday Night, saffron, and tell that story. I need to know more about this story. And so he, you know off. I went to Sunday Night Saffron and told him, and Father Bob, and you know, even I remember a few years later, maybe like five or six years later, tammy, I was being interviewed by another Jewish podcast and they said to me would you cook pork again, you know, would you cook non-kosher food again on the television? And I was just like hang on a minute, like I've just spent half a decade contributing to my community, you know, demonstrating tikkun olam.
Speaker 1:You know that's ultimately.
Speaker 3:You know the way that I express my Jewishness is in my day-to-day dealings with people and in the way that I, you know, have a deep faith in what will come, in putting good things out there. You know all of those kinds of parts you know, let alone the tzedakah, and you know, and the gemilut chassidim, you know I do all that, including you know, like I'm all about the knowledge, and yet you're going to decide based on this arbitrary part of our religion. You know that I don't practice, I'm not a kosher Jew, so for me to project that in the media would be dishonest and disingenuous. And so you know I cook and eat the way that I try and include as many people as possible. I recognize the rules of kashrut.
Speaker 3:I went to a very religious school, so you know they were hammered into us. So hopefully that answers your question of you know. I think the reason that I learned to cook treif is because over the years, you know, I've gone to a lot of restaurants and I have also worked with a lot of chefs, did a chef at home course with a Michelin star chef and learned to cook all of those basic things. But also I think it does probably lead back to where I was born and how I grew up.
Speaker 1:This could be presumptuous, but I assumed that because you were born in former Soviet Union, in Georgia, that perhaps kashrut wasn't exactly on the cards and that you weren't really able to express your Judaism. Is that right, that's?
Speaker 3:very correct, you know, and even I think that that's probably what it brings up for me is because I remember being Jewish in the Soviet Union. I heard Alex Rivchin on your podcast speaking about this. You know, we chose to be Jews, out loud, you know, but in silence, private, but also in public ways, as much as we could do. So mum was saying that they had a jeweler that was secretly pressing Magendavids and people were wearing them underneath their clothes because that was their way, our way, that we could express our Jewishness. They would go and they would buy matzah for Pesach, for Passover, but they would have to do it in secret because it was seen as an illegal act, it was an act of rebellion, and so it was kind of.
Speaker 3:You know, you were hiding the matzah, not just as the Afrikoman, you were hiding the matzah because it was at risk of your family and being seen as a traitor to the communist cause. So, coming to Australia, like my parents had no context for the rules of Kashrut, you know, let alone the rules of general kind of Jewishness, beyond what they were able to learn, and they saw it as a real privilege that they were able to send their children to religious Jewish schools in this country, but they would send me there with kielbasa, you know, like sandwiches, with luncheon meat or like with like I remember even little things, like there's just so much assumed knowledge if you grow up in the diaspora or in a place where being Jewish is something that you're permitted to do fully you know, to the full expression that you would like.
Speaker 3:I went around to a friend's place for Shabbat lunch and they were all passing the kiddush cup around and we didn't have like a Shabbos tradition.
Speaker 3:You know, we'd certainly have family dinners where we would sit around together, but we didn't have something like that. And so when they passed me the Kiddush cup first, I sort of was like, oh, thank you, and just put it down again. I didn't know that you pass it around and they kind of like I heard a little snicker and I was like, oh, this is embarrassing, you know. So there were all those little moments that definitely made me, as a refusing, you know, as a as a Soviet Jew arriving to Australia in the 90s, feel ashamed and it's taken a lot of work to kind of move beyond the point of what it means to belong in a community and to deserve to be Jewish, so like I think that that's what that brings up. I think we need to all cease the judgment, and I know that that's not the way that you intended that kind of question, because it's just so flippant, right no, that wasn.
Speaker 1:That wasn't my intention at all. That's why I opened with the admission that I'm quite partial to a bit of trafe, and you know, a rabbi once said to me Tammy, it's not about what you put into your mouth, it's about what comes out of your mouth, and I was like that's so lovely, but also I'm f***ed either way then. But you, no, you're absolutely right. I'm sorry that I brought this up for you, but also it's given you a platform to say all this stuff, which is really really crucial, I feel, for so many members of our community to hear yeah, I think that it's not up to anyone else to decide how Jewish you are or whether you deserve to be part of this community.
Speaker 3:You know there are many ways to be a Jew and you decide whether you want to be a part of that community and how you want to. You know, show up.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. It's also given me so much more empathy for you and your journey here. Because when you talk to a in inverted commas ordinary immigrant who's come to Australia, they often talk about that culture shock of coming from their country of origin and landing in Australia and then kind of fitting into general Australia. But you had the double whammy of needing to fit into, you know, white Australia but then also a Jewish community within Australia.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I had a really skewed idea. You know, when you're at school you want to be really cool, you want to be in with the cool kids. I had a skewed idea of what that meant because at my school, being cool and hot was like how long your skirt was and how well you governed. So like did you pray with deep intensity Because that's hot?
Speaker 1:Wow, are we allowed to say the name of the school that you went?
Speaker 3:to. I think they're pretty proud of me, so I'm cool with that. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:It was Yovna College in Melbourne, which is quite a. Listeners have probably gathered it's quite a religious school.
Speaker 3:It's the one just below separating us into girls and boys. So you know we would. It was the kind of school where it kind of depended on who the principal was, but it became more and less kind of frummy depending. So there was a point at which girls couldn't sing solo, we had to have a boy singing with us. You know, that was sort of year 10, 11, 12.
Speaker 1:That happened at my school too, which was a modern Orthodox school. The girls could sing on their own if they had a microphone, because that apparently skewed the voice and so it wasn't their original voice, but nevertheless we'd still see the rabbi or the quite religious boys leave the auditorium when that happened.
Speaker 3:Yeah crazy. Well, not crazy, sorry, that's judgy different yeah, it's different and but I think, um, it kind of skews your sense of self and permission to be your full self. And I think at that school, yeah, like it probably kept me out of trouble, you know, like if aspiring to be hot was how devout you were I just want to take a few steps back to your Georgian roots.
Speaker 1:I heard you being interviewed by Lizzie Hu for a podcast with the SBS. In this interview you briefly touched on the fact that you have an ancestor who wrote a cookbook, and if you've listened to A Shame to Admit before, which I know you have, you'll know that Dash and I talk quite a bit about ancestors. He has a theory that everyone has a secret Jewish ancestor. I have a theory that everyone has a secret hot ancestor. I'm aware that you have an ancestor who wrote a book in 1980s Georgia. Can you please tell our listeners what that book was? And then, can you please tell us if you rate him or not?
Speaker 3:Well, I'm just thinking because my cookbooks are behind me, so maybe towards the end I'll see if I can find it, but it was a cookbook in 1980s, soviet Georgia, in the Soviet Union. He might be an ancestor on the Ukrainian side, so it might have been in Soviet Ukraine. He was a foodie and he wanted to write a book of Jewish recipes, with his mother as well, and the Soviet regime basically said yes, you can write this book if you allow us to put it together, to package it up and I know, as someone who writes cookbooks, that managing it from go to woe, like including the packaging, like I'm over everything, the photography, the art direction, the cover, everything because you want it all to convey one message. That was the only way that he was able to publish the book. So he allowed it and it's a book of Jewish recipes and all the imagery is of the kind of tropes of Jewishness that the Soviet Union was projecting Shylock figures, hook noses, big bushy eyebrows, you know, like real kind of racist imagery.
Speaker 3:But that was the only way that he could convey those recipes to the people that really wanted them and I think it kind of shows that we just kind of we do what we have to do right in order to continue our traditions within the situations that we're in. So, you know, the same way as my parents would hide their Magen David's and they would, you know, have ceremonies in secret, you know, so that my brother could still have a bar mitzvah, like all of those things still happen. So I think that, from a perspective of beshert, you know fate. There was always going to be food in my family and there was always going to be someone that brought our food and Jewish cooking and the cooking, too, of the Soviet Union to the world through the eyes of his great-great, whatever it was niece or whatever, and it's not just him. Like my great-grandfather, my Dzi, my, my father, he was a cook in the Bolshevik army.
Speaker 3:You know, he was basically given the choice you either fight or you do something else within our ranks. And he said okay, well, I don't agree with what you're saying, so I'm going to cook. And he, you know, almost wound up going off to the gulags. But I think Stalin died. That was. The only thing that saved him is that he was going to be shipped off to Siberia, but the Stalin leg of communism ended just in time.
Speaker 3:And on the. You know, on the other side, my, my babushka's father was a teacher in a cheder, so you know, essentially a rabbi Like I remember one of the biggest compliments that I was paid when I was probably year eight or nine, studying Gemara, which is like deep Torah, like the sages and the rabbi that was teaching the class said to me you have a rabbi's mind, you must have a rabbi in your ancestry. Because maybe we are all obsessed with ancestors, aren't we? We think about our lines a lot as jews, we definitely do.
Speaker 1:You mentioned the word gulag and I nodded my head and as if I knew what you were talking about different to gulash very different to gulash.
Speaker 3:The gulags were the siberian jails, you know g.
Speaker 1:Oh, my grandmother was in a Siberian labor camp in the Second World War.
Speaker 3:That would have been a gulag, yep.
Speaker 1:Wow, I also have Ukrainian ancestors, so maybe actually my hot ancestor knew your hot ancestor.
Speaker 3:We could be related.
Speaker 1:We probably are. We all are Back to this cookbook and the terrible imagery that they included in their production design. Can we try and get into the head of their marketing team, like what were they thinking?
Speaker 3:I'm not sure. I think that it was more about controlling the narratives and they didn't want Jewish people to feel higher than their station and they didn't want people to idealize this culture. You know, like, I think the other thing that people who aren't from that part of the world or aren't Jewish from that part of the world haven't seen are the passports that we all had, like my passport when we came to Australia for nationality said Jewish. We were literally second-rate citizens, so that was kind of where we were kept. And look at you now, yeah, bumpy nose, and all Check these brows.
Speaker 1:And we're owning it.
Speaker 2:Today's delicious episode is brought to you by Field to Fork, butcher grill and homestyle meals.
Speaker 1:At their four locations across Sydney's east Forkloos, bondi, paddington and Randwick. You'll find a full butcher display with exceptional grass fed and finished steaks, roast sausages made in-house daily and barbecue goodies like marinated kebabs, butterflied legs of lamb and tender chops.
Speaker 2:Not only that, you'll find a wide range of their homestyle meals. Think slow roasted shoulders of lamb, farmhouse roast chickens, lasagna, freshly made sandwiches, meatballs plus sides and salads to go along with it. Oh, boy, boy, this really isn't helping my Sydney envy.
Speaker 1:They also do catering for events Dash.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's it. I'm packing my bags.
Speaker 1:Since day one, field to Fork have also been making a range of South African products in-house. Their biltong recipe has been passed down three generations. Uh-oh Dash, I feel a Safa accent coming generations. Uh-oh Dash, I feel a Saffa accent coming on, uh-oh. Y'all. They are so extremely proud of their version of their delicious gluten-free, sugar-free, high-protein snack. I can't. It's just beyond. They also do a Devan all-beef bori.
Speaker 2:We'll leave more info about Field to Fork in the show notes.
Speaker 1:I think I need to hang out with a few more South Africans just to like, really you know, finesse the accent. Okay, back to my chat with Alice. Alice, I'm ashamed to admit that I had no idea who Ruth Rahel was until I heard Julia Louis-Dreyfus interview her on the Wiser Than Me podcast, which is another top rated podcast. Firstly, Alice, am I pronouncing Ruth Rahel correctly?
Speaker 3:It depends Like. In America they would say Rachel, ruth, rachel, but Rachel like is probably the way that her ancestors would have pronounced it, and she is one of the preeminent food writers, food critics, in the United States. And my favorite Ruth story is actually from another Jewish food writer, jonathan Gold, the late great Jonathan Gold. Food writer Jonathan Gold, the late great Jonathan Gold. He was the food critic for the LA Times and the LA Weekly. He was a beautiful man, sadly died well before his time and Jonathan came to Australia and he was interviewed by another dear food writer friend of mine, danny Vallant, when his film City of Gold came out and we took Jonathan Eating, danny Sophia Levin, another food writer in the Melbourne Jewish community, and I should say to MasterChef Judge, we, and Anna Webster as well, took Jonathan Eating. It was so, so fun.
Speaker 3:And Jonathan told us this story about Ruth Reifel and it was basically Ruth was so committed to not being recognized when she'd go to restaurants to critique them.
Speaker 3:Because what you don't realize as a punter is that all of these restaurants have the critics up on the wall like as pictures and they know if you're coming in that you're there to review them or even if you're not there to review them.
Speaker 3:They try and give you some extra special service in order to you know, know, leave a good impression, which is really inconvenient because you're just trying to get a regular experience to critique the place. So Ruth would have all these elaborate costumes. And Jonathan said that one time he saw her at a restaurant in New York and she was wearing a wig, she was wearing a waxwork nose and the place was really hot and everybody around her was pretending that they didn't know that it was Ruth and her nose was melting from the candle and everyone was just maintaining the conceit because that's what she needed of them. But they all knew. And Jonathan said that he came over and slapped her on the back of her. You know, slapped her on the back and said Ruth, you devil. So that should answer your question and give you a little bit of extra sauce. That's brilliant.
Speaker 1:We love a bit of extra sauce. On this podcast, ruth was interviewed by Julia Louis-Dreyfus, otherwise known as Elaine, otherwise known as Veep. Anyhow, ruth admitted on this podcast that she despises honey, that she has a visceral repulsion to it, and I just wanted to know your thoughts on honey. Big fan, big fan, big fan.
Speaker 3:No visceral response. Okay, you know, dip some apple in some honey.
Speaker 1:You kind of have to right.
Speaker 3:You do, and we've got such beautiful honey If you're listening to this anywhere else in the world. We in Australia are so lucky to have wildflower honey, you know, rooftop honey. We've got some of the most delicious and varied flavors of honey in the world.
Speaker 1:Okay, I know you don't like to yuck anyone's yum, but is there any other food that you just are like? I'm not going to go there. I can't, I can't go near it. I can't.
Speaker 3:I think the only one, the only one that I still struggle to understand is Vegemite. And I try really hard because I feel so basic, being a migrant that doesn't like Vegemite, but because I didn't grow up with it. It's just so salty to me. You know, like I just my daughter, you know, she's five and a half and we introduced her to Vegemite a couple of months ago actually and she stuck her finger in and tasted it and she said it tastes like pens. It's so accurate, right, and I think it's just about application. So then we tried to explain to her, because the first time I tasted it I stuck a spoon in and tasted it like I thought it was Nutella, right, hazelnut spread, no, and no one stopped me. So we had to explain to our daughter. Well, actually it's more like a condiment, you know, it's more like a seasoning. You don't want much Vegemite. I've had it in desserts and I've found it sort of inoffensive. I've had it on crackers with avocado and cheese and I've found it again inoffensive, but I wouldn't reach for it.
Speaker 1:Okay, whoa, whoa, just take it. Just step back for a minute. You said you've had it in desserts.
Speaker 3:Yes, it's one of those flavours that pastry chefs really love to experiment with. So, the same way as, like you do a salted caramel, you can do a salted Vegemite caramel. That was all the rage in the 2010s and I tasted it because I didn't want to be one of those people that said, oh no, thanks, I don't like Vegemite, but it's fine. As Jonathan Gold would say, it's adequate. That's what we use now. If something's like fine, it's adequate.
Speaker 1:Alice, is there anything that you're just ashamed to admit, like in general?
Speaker 3:Probably like. I think. Here's the thing. I wouldn't even say I'm ashamed to admit it. I think everything that I do in my life I try to be, you know, proud about it like intentional, but every time that I have admitted this, the response tells me that I probably should be ashamed, and that is that I don't do any housework like none. My husband, beautiful, beautiful man, nick he had appendicitis a few years ago ended up in hospital, had to have his appendix out, and in our first conversation he said don't worry, I can talk you through the washing machine Like right.
Speaker 3:I told that story to a room full of mostly women at a book event and it was just like an audible gasp and I told it in a way that was sort of like ha ha, isn't that funny?
Speaker 3:And they were just, they were ashamed for me. So I think that that's probably where the cookie crumbles. And what I would say to that is that if I were a man at the level that I'm at, doing the things that I do with no room, no capacity for mental load, and I have this amazing partner who is willing to do that in order to keep the wheels on the train, yeah, there would be no shame. Yeah, so I'm hoping to role model. You know I'm role modeling what it means to be partners, equal partners, no matter who chooses. You know, no matter what gender you are, you know what your strengths are, and he is a Virgo and he is like, so fastidious and precise. And our home is like my grandmother, my babushka, would say it's like, which means like a candy, which she always hoped my room would be and it never was.
Speaker 3:Now it is you married a true balabusta yeah that's what you did and, for non-jewish listeners, a balabusta it's a yiddish expression describing a good homemaker, or balabosta.
Speaker 1:Balaboste, my Hebrew teacher's going to leave me a voice memo correcting my pronunciation. Have you not heard that Yiddish term before?
Speaker 3:Never, I've never heard it. I've heard, like you know, like I would say that I've married a real mensch.
Speaker 1:Okay, but he's not just a mensch, he's a balabus. Can you guess what one of the most commonly Googled things about you is?
Speaker 3:You know I can, and the reason why is because I will sometimes check my Alice Zaslavsky to see you know whether there's a new news article or whatever, and it always says Alice Zaslavsky recipes. Second always Alice Zaslavsky husband.
Speaker 1:Yeah, people also ask who is Alice Zaslavsky's husband.
Speaker 3:Why do you think that is Like? Why do they want to know?
Speaker 1:Did he make an appearance on your season of MasterChef?
Speaker 3:He did. He was my boyfriend at the time and he was just so sweet and so like, so handsome and so straighty 180. Like he's a very like. His posture is perfect.
Speaker 3:And he said when we went on, when he went on the show, he said I need to demonstrate to people how many times you need to chew your food. I'm going to role model this. And then he chewed this piece of lamb like 16 times and the camera just stayed on him and it just was so bad because you would read that, as that lamb is really tough, I need to chew it so much. But he was just showing Australia the way that you need to chew and you know what else. He's actually been listening to Yuval Noah Harari's new book, nexus, yeah, and a whole lot of that is Torah study. So he's been telling me about the sages.
Speaker 1:I'm just like I've got me a study boy he's a mensch, he's a balabusta and he's a scholar. He's a yeshiva bocha, essentially so I want all our listeners to know that you don't need to be born Jewish to be all of those things.
Speaker 3:You can decide whether you belong in this community.
Speaker 1:Alice, you've given me so much of your time. Thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 3:And Tammy. Thank you so much for the months and years of joy that you bring us. You are a big melon of joy yourself, and I'm so grateful to call you a friend.
Speaker 2:Folks, that's it for another week. Today's show was brought to you by Filterfork.
Speaker 1:And just in case you've forgotten, you have been listening to A Shame to Admit with me, tammy Sussman, and my BFF. Executive Director of TJI, dr Dashiell Kootpunam Lawrence.
Speaker 2:This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King, with theme music by Donovan Janks.
Speaker 1:If you like the podcast, leave a positive review, tell your people or encourage your third cousin's cousin to sponsor an episode, like Phil to Fork did today.
Speaker 2:You can tell us what you're ashamed to admit?
Speaker 1:or what you're not ashamed to admit but should be ashamed to admit.
Speaker 2:Yep Via the contact form on the Jewish Independent website or by emailing ashamed at thejewishindependentcomau.
Speaker 1:As always, thanks for your support and we'll see you next week.
Speaker 2:Bye for now.
Speaker 1:Y'all bye for now. Thank you.