Ashamed to Admit
Are you ashamed to admit you're not across the big issues and events affecting Jews in Australia, Israel and around the Jewish world?
In this new podcast from online publication The Jewish Independent, Your Third Cousin Tami Sussman and TJI's Dashiel Lawrence tackle the week's 'Chewiest and Jewiest' topics.
Ashamed to Admit
Episode #29 Explaining Australia's antisemitism crisis, with Dr Josh Roose
ATA is back. In their first episode for season 3, Dash and Tami discuss the summer of antisemitic attacks launched on Australian Jews. Who is behind the incidents? What is motivating them? How can it be stopped? Dr Josh Roose, political sociologist from Deakin University, shares his analysis.
Relevant articles:
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/a-week-of-fighting-australias-antisemitism-crisis
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/dark-star-elon-musk-antisemitism
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/the-disturbing-reason-why-pro-palestine-protesters-wont-stop
Email your feedback and voice memos here: ashamed@thejewishindependent.com.au
Subscribe to The Jewish Independent's bi-weekly newsletter: jewishindependent.com.au
Tami and Dash on Instagram: tami_sussman_writer_celebrant and dashiel_and_pascoe
X: TJI_au
YouTube: thejewishindependentAU
Facebook: TheJewishIndependentAU
Instagram: thejewishindependent
LinkedIn: the-jewish-independent
Are you interested in issues affecting Jews in Australia, the Middle East and the world at large? But a little bit ashamed that you're barely keeping up to date.
Speaker 2:Well, you've come to the right place. I'm Dash Lawrence and in this podcast series, your dazed and confused third cousin, Tammy Sussman, and I call on experts and each other to address all the ignorant questions you might be too ashamed to ask.
Speaker 1:Join us as we have a go at cutting through some seriously chewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the third season of the Jewish Independent podcast. A shame to admit. Hello everyone, happy 2025. Not sure if I can still say that it's February. I'm Dash Lawrence, executive Director here at the Jewish Independent.
Speaker 1:And I'm Tammy. It's a miracle I haven't upped my meds, Sussman.
Speaker 2:You've just managed to get your eldest into school. You're living through a Sydney heat wave. You're just barely keeping up.
Speaker 1:And, on top of all of that, what used to be just casual racism has now become overt racism in Sydney, australia, for our international listeners or those in Australia perhaps being served different news on their algorithm. We've been experiencing a wave of anti-Semitic attacks against Jewish institutions, synagogues, childcare centres, even individuals, across the country, but particularly in Sydney, and this has led to a lot of the people in my circles people in my circles, specifically the Jewish people having some serious conversations about whether or not it's safe for us to stay in Australia. Dash.
Speaker 2:Wow Okay, how serious are these conversations?
Speaker 1:I thought they were joking, but they're quite serious, and a little squiz on the Facebook group Jews of Sydney was really enlightening for me. I'm going to read you a post that someone wrote. They wrote in light of the recent anti-Semitic events in Sydney, I've been wondering has anyone in our community thought more seriously about making Aliyah and moving to Israel? With the rise in antisemitism globally, we are re-evaluating where we feel safest and most at home. So there are a few responses. One person said I grew up in Israel and moved here nine years ago.
Speaker 1:The rise in anti-Semitism is extremely disturbing and concerning. However, I am not running to the bomb shelter multiple times a day and people in Sydney aren't getting kidnapped from their beds to Gaza. My daughter won't be forced to serve in the military and I can only hope she will never learn the fear of living through war and intifada. Another person said we made Aliyah six years ago and I feel so very blessed to live in Israel. I'm very happy not to be in Australia and facing the rising tide of antisemitism. All roads in this chat were leading to Israel.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I thought that's pretty far away, Like that's a big leap. I was thinking hypothetically, if I had to move with my family somewhere, I mean I would choose maybe New Zealand because it's pretty close and they don't have any scary spiders there.
Speaker 2:I'm pretty sure the Jewish community in New Zealand would have a few things to say about how comfortable or safe Jews in New Zealand feel as well. Yeah, they probably do so.
Speaker 1:I went to chat GPT. I went to my rabbi. This is what I asked what are the safest countries for Jewish people to live in in 2025? What do you think chat GPT said was the safest country for jews to live in in 2025?
Speaker 2:according to rabbi chat gpt. We know that chat gpt is a little bit behind on the news, so is it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm pretty sure it's not going to give you the most up-to-date takes, so anything that's happened in the last few months could be wrong about this. It's not going to be across. Okay, so you might have previously had said Greenland, but that's apparently that's not even safe anymore.
Speaker 1:Really what, only in the past few months?
Speaker 2:Well, insofar as Donald Trump's now saying that he's seriously considering taking it over for the United States, look what would ChatGPT say? I don't know, tell me, tammy.
Speaker 1:No. What do you think is number one safest country for Jewish people?
Speaker 2:ChatGPT moves in very mysterious ways. It's possible that it would have actually come back with Israel. It did yeah.
Speaker 1:It said. The pros are that it's a Jewish majority state, strong legal protections and Jewish culture is central. The cons security risks due to regional conflicts and terrorism threats. Okay, number two. What do you reckon?
Speaker 2:United States. Okay, Number two. What do you reckon? United States?
Speaker 1:Yep Pros large and diverse Jewish community. Legal protection, strong advocacy groups. Cons rising antisemitism in some areas, including violent attacks and campus tensions.
Speaker 2:Number three I feel like this is now potentially in order of Jewish population size. I think the next on the list would be Canada.
Speaker 1:Yeah, government pros government policies against hate crimes. Active Jewish communities in Toronto, montreal and Vancouver Cons some increase in anti-Semitic incidents, though still lower than in the US. But I just have to say I think that Australians would really struggle in Canada because of the weather. We're not used to such cold winters so I don't think that we would survive there. Based on that, I think that we would find the super cold winters there antisemitic. I think that we would find the super cold winters there.
Speaker 2:Anti-semitic, we would love the bagels, though they do a very particular type of bagel in Montreal.
Speaker 1:They do, but I think we would get depressed from vitamin D deficiency and we wouldn't even have the co-op to get out to buy the bagels. I think that's what would happen. No, your theory is wrong. If you're going by population size, number four was Australia, followed by the United Kingdom. At number six was Germany.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:The pros strong legal measures against antisemitism and government actively combats hate speech. The cons resurgence of far-right extremism in some areas, absolutely the alternative for Deutschland.
Speaker 2:the AfD is 100% on the march and would be quite possibly a coalition partner in the next German government, and they are no friends of the Jewish community. So yeah, I would beg to differ.
Speaker 1:I also think that Sydney Jews would struggle in Germany because they're so pro-public transport and we're not used to that, so I think we'd feel really unstable there. Number seven is Portugal.
Speaker 2:This surprised me.
Speaker 1:Oh okay, all right, that is very unusual Low anti-Semitic incidents, welcoming policies and a growing Jewish community. Number eight will surprise you, dash. What do you reckon number eight is? I don't know.
Speaker 2:Like, given that we're now scraping the bottom of the barrel with places like Portugal, I'm going to throw something really odd out there and say Singapore.
Speaker 1:No. Oh okay, united Arab Emirates.
Speaker 2:Oh God, this is ridiculous. Tammy, you have to stop turning to ChatGPT for your research. That's just-.
Speaker 1:Listen to what ChatGPT said. It said it's surprisingly safe due to the Abraham Accords and a growing Jewish presence in Dubai.
Speaker 2:Yes, and we know what happened to that growing Jewish presence. There was a Chabad rabbi that was killed only a few months ago. So no, it is not a safe place.
Speaker 1:Okay. So having ruled out Canada because of the weather, I thought, well, maybe the United States is an option. But then I remembered well, the United States isn't a great place to be right now if you're a woman, right.
Speaker 2:Vis-a-vis reproductive rights.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So I asked Rabbi Chach EBT top countries for both Jewish people and women.
Speaker 2:Right. Much more focused question as of 2025,.
Speaker 1:What do you think was number one country, as both a Jew and a woman?
Speaker 2:This is getting very niche now, tammy, I can't guess?
Speaker 1:Tell me. Okay. Number one was Canada, but what I should have said was top countries for both Sydney-born Jewish people and women. So we've cut Canada out because of the cold weather.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:So next on the list is actually Australia.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:Because it has an active Jewish community, especially in Sydney and Melbourne. Antisemitism exists, but it's relatively low. So you've now told me that this is a few months behind.
Speaker 2:So that makes sense now that it's put it there, yeah.
Speaker 1:But women's safety. They have a high quality of life, strong legal protections, good healthcare and economic opportunities.
Speaker 2:You would beg to differ.
Speaker 1:Some would beg to differ. Number three is Portugal. It has very low antisemitic incidents. Just a reminder welcoming policies and some Sephardic, jewish history. It's just thrown in there. So I think, if you're a Sephardi Jewish woman living in Sydney, this is the place for you. It has low crime rates in terms of women's safety, apparently, and progressive gender equality laws. I think Dash, I'm going to start a movement.
Speaker 2:A movement of Sydney Jews to Portugal, sydney Jewish women to Portugal. Yeah, also has very liberal approaches to the use of recreational drugs.
Speaker 1:Boomtown.
Speaker 2:If you are looking for a place to be a Jewish woman and you love your party drugs, that is the place for you to go.
Speaker 1:At this year's Seder I'm going to be saying next year in Portugal.
Speaker 2:Next year in Lisbon.
Speaker 1:Girlies.
Speaker 2:Doesn't have to be just Lisbon. Porto is also a beautiful city. Don't know how many Jewish people there are in Porto, but-.
Speaker 1:Well, I'll tell you how many there will be next year. Yeah, 20,000.
Speaker 2:Tammy, yet again, I sense that this is a way for you to manage and cope with the heaviness of this time. You know me too well, but we do need to get back to our focus of today's show.
Speaker 1:We began this show by acknowledging the recent wave of attacks against Jewish people in Australia of late and, as your dazed and confused third cousin, dear listener, I had some questions that I brought to Dash. I wanted to know if he thought these incidents were organized by criminal gangs or are they the result of copycat attacks by just a handful of individuals? Copycat attacks by just a handful of individuals, and I was really curious to know what he thought the motivations of these attackers were. And at the time of recording we don't have answers to this one. Dash, even though you're super smart, you humbly told me that you don't have all the answers to those questions, but you did find someone who could shed some light on the rise of violent extremism in Australia and in the West more broadly.
Speaker 2:I did, tammy. Dr Josh Roos is a political sociologist and associate professor of politics at the Alfred Deakin Institute for Citizenship and Globalization at Deakin University. Josh is an internationally recognized authority on the role of masculinities and ideologies in violent extremism and terrorism. He's also an expert on the attraction of men to Salafi jihadist movements, extreme right and violent misogynistic and anti-democratic movements and new forms of violent extremist ideologies ascendant around the world. Josh is one of a small group of academics who have been willing to speak out on attacks directed at Jewish communities in Australia and around the world since October 7th, and we thought what better person to get on the show to talk about this really concerning wave of violence and attacks that we've seen over the summer here in Australia.
Speaker 1:We need to start by thanking you, Josh, for joining us on A Shame to Admit.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me, Josh. Can you help our listeners understand a little bit about the focus of your research?
Speaker 3:Yeah, sure, I do a lot of research around the ugly things in society. I look at political and religious violence, violent extremism, terrorism, and I look across the spectrum. So I look at the far right. I look at different forms of religious extremism, in particular Salafi jihadism, but also Christian nationalism. I look at the extreme left, Basically anywhere that there's individuals or groups that hold ideological perspectives that are anti-democratic but also violent and that seek to harm others. I do funded research projects into them and do a fair bit of public commentary around these issues too.
Speaker 2:Investigations are continuing and, as of yet, state and federal police have not indicated a motivation. They've been very tight-lipped about the wave of attacks and violence that we've seen, particularly in Sydney, in the past few months. I'm wondering how you've been looking at these attacks and whether you have already been developing a hypothesis in your mind.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I think to look at these attacks, we've got to go a little bit back in time and provide some context, and when I say I look at different forms of political and religious extremism, amongst the very worst of those is anti-Semitism, historically speaking, but also, whenever it pops up, it's effectively the canary in the coal mine for a much deeper and more dangerous time, and I think, unfortunately, that's where we find ourselves at the moment. Anti-semitism has been on the increase in Australia for about a decade. There's some amazing people Julie Nathan and others who captured that data for at least a couple of decades and published it, and around 2014-15 it was on the uptick. It went up during COVID, when we saw a lot of conspiratorial movements pop back up alongside the extreme right, and behind every good conspiracy theory is an anti-semitic trope where it's jews pulling the strings, holding all the power and basically exploiting the poor white man is effectively the narrative. Now that's, um, you know, taken a bit of hold, particularly online amongst some of these anti-government groups and extremist groups. It's always been there in elements of various communities, but what we've seen particularly post-October 7, was a dramatic escalation in anti-Semitism. Now, that's paradoxical because I would have thought and it shocked me because in the aftermath of October 7, where Jews were clearly targeted for genocidal violence, you would have thought there would have been a sympathy directed towards Jewish communities and a form of solidarity extended to them, but amongst many, it was conflated with anti-Israel activism on the left.
Speaker 3:Unfortunately, what we saw on October 9 on the steps of the Sydney Opera House, where, again, young men from the extreme fringes of the Muslim community and they are known as Salafis and Salafi jihadists were gathered around, screaming fuck the Jews and gas the Jews, and so, to that extent, that was a really important moment, because from there it's spiral. We already knew that the extreme right were active, going into Jewish areas and attempting to intimidate and threaten, but what we saw then was this convergence of extreme left, extreme right, fringe elements of the Muslim community, and from there we saw major political parties jump on board. We saw an entire online campaign directed towards Jewish communities, in particular, those who believe that Israel has a right to exist. So this particular moment, when we look at these attacks as they're occurring in Sydney in particular, but also more recently in Melbourne we have to understand that this is part of a broader series and set of developments.
Speaker 3:Now what we're seeing currently appears, at least based on very recent reporting, to be people who don't fit the profile of the traditional anti-Semite. We're looking at people who aren't particularly politically active, apparently don't appear to be advocates or activists. We see people who appear to effectively be tools carrying out attacks on behalf of others, allowing them to keep at arm's length. Now that's a new development. It's not something I've got my head around and I am reliant on the media and reporting for some of this, but it's a dangerous new development because it indicates that there's money and there's funding behind elements of this as well, and there's criminal elements involved, and we know that criminal elements are always going to be open to extreme violence. So if you understand recent developments in the context of that broader set of developments, it's a dangerous time.
Speaker 1:I have a question at this point. I'm ashamed to admit I've never heard the term Salafi jihadism. I've heard jihadism, but I haven't heard Salafi jihadism. What is it?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So a lot of my research has worked on and with Muslim communities and I've met some great, amazing people who are contributing to Australia and have no interest in extremism in any way, shape or form. However, just like the extreme fringe of Christianity and I had a grandfather who was a pretty fundamentalist Christian minister, he used to Bible bash me and so on the extreme fringe of most religions, there's a hard line, a conservative element, and in the case of Islam they're known as Salafis. Now, it's a puritanical form of Islam. It's talking about the return to the time of the prophet and seeking to live like the prophet did, based on the practices of the prophet and his companions. So there's rules about how long you can grow your beard, how you live your life, what you can and can't do, and so on. By itself, that's a conservative form of Islam and it's reasonably harmless. It's much like any other form of conservative religion. But you start to then move across the spectrum into political Salafism. So we see groups like Hizb ut-Tahrir emerge who advocate for a caliphate, advocate for violence, but very subtly, not in a way that allows them to be framed as supporting terrorism, but they'll talk in very broad terms. So that's political Salafism and it's a form of activism. And again, within a democracy, arguably there's space for that to occur.
Speaker 3:But then you talk about Salafi jihadism. Now, within Islam, jihad is. There's two forms of jihad, effectively. There's the greater jihad, which is a spiritual struggle against the nafs and against temptation, but then there's jihad, as in holy war, against those who are slighting Muslims or the non-believers. Now, salafi jihadists pretty much ignore the greater struggle, the spiritual struggle to be better Muslims. Their focus is very much in the here and now and the fight and the warrior status that that bestows upon them.
Speaker 3:And you'll find that many Salafi jihadists are angry young men who are drawn to the narrative of a warrior, drawn to the narrative of fighting and belonging to something bigger than themselves. That offers them a form of solidarity. It's highly multicultural. It doesn't matter where you're from as long as you're part of that sort of group. Now, many of them have been evicted from mainstream mosques or even conservative Salafi mosques. They're at the extreme fringe of the Muslim communities. However, in any community of the size of the Australian Muslim community, there's going to still be a number, and so in that context, we understand that we're looking at a very small element, but a very vocal, very angry element of Muslim communities there.
Speaker 2:So, Josh, when you look at these attacks both the attacks here in Melbourne, thinking of the Adas Israel firebombing and the graffiti and firebombing of the childcare centre and several other attacks in Sydney in recent months Do you see anything about those attacks that have the hallmarks of Salafi jihadism, or is this potentially? I mean, you mentioned before that the people that have been arrested in relation to some of these attacks are career criminals and not those that you typically attach to political motivations. So would we expect Salafi jihadists to be engaging with violence through intermediaries, or does this perhaps indicate some other form of political violence?
Speaker 3:That's a really excellent question and it's not easy to answer without some speculation. So I think the caveat to anything I say here is speculation and I prefer to speak purely based on facts as a scholar. But I will elaborate to an extent. What we have is a community that are angry about what's going on in Gaza. Generally speaking, muslim communities feel that deeply, much as Jewish communities here feel that deeply. There's a polarisation on both ends and a binary has emerged.
Speaker 3:But what we see with these extreme fringes in particular is that many of the criminal elements and gangs have a Middle Eastern component, or some of them have a Middle Eastern component, particularly in Sydney, and there's an intersection between some of those actors and Salafi jihadists who are in prison.
Speaker 3:Often they intersect with each other or engage with each other in prisons, and so there is potentially an element there where there could be some form of interaction between criminal gangs and Salafi jihadists, but we don't know enough, and that's what I've got to say clearly. We don't know whether or not they're influencing one another, whether or not they're acting through these gangs and their resources to carry out these attacks. That's one possible component. Another is that we've seen in Europe, we've seen the Iranian government active in targeting Jewish embassies. And there's concern at least some speculation there about the role of the Iranian government in Amsterdam with the Israeli football team and the riots that targeted Jewish supporters there and the rights that targeted Jewish supporters there.
Speaker 3:But unfortunately, for better or worse, we just don't know enough at this point. Intelligence agencies keep these cards close to their chest, for good reason, because they need to understand what's going on and not necessarily alert individuals and groups that they're being monitored. So to this extent we're kind of stuck. It's thinking about who might be behind it. It is certainly an unusual development but beyond speculation based on some very basic and broad set of facts, we don't know enough.
Speaker 2:As strange as this may seem, josh, and it's certainly not an analysis that I take, but I want to put it to you because I'm interested in your response there are some who look at these attacks, these wave of anti-Semitism we've seen this summer, as connected to and part of a broader wave of violence directed not just at Jews but also at Arabs and anti-Palestinian racism in Australia and part of a wave of these people would say, of Islamophobia. I'm interested in what you make of that analysis.
Speaker 3:Another on-point, excellent question. It's hard to unpack, particularly for the layperson, as to what's going on. Look, on the one hand, any form of racism and discrimination is terrible. Australia is a multicultural country with all the baggage that that carries, but in world terms, an incredibly successful country that has brought people in from around the world.
Speaker 3:However, I don't think that at this particular point in time, you can necessarily talk about anti-Semitism and anti-Muslim racism in the same vein. I think there is a strong history of anti-Muslim racism, particularly after the 9-11 attacks, where Muslim communities felt themselves to be targeted and certainly received the full weight of the law and surveillance and media condemnation and so on for a prolonged period of time. But I think we've actually moved a little bit beyond that. I wouldn't put anti-Semitism in the current moment in that same boat. Right now, I think, whilst anti-Muslim racism continues and bigots are going to be bigots and attack people they don't like of all persuasions, I think anti-Semitism to me at this particular moment, given its increase, its rapid escalation and extreme vitriol and its escalation to violence in the way that it has to me, it's got to be understood as a different issue and the issue at this particular moment.
Speaker 1:Josh, you mentioned that there are a lot of young, isolated men who are making up quite a big number of these extremists and the people carrying out these attacks, and your research pays particular attention to the intersection between masculinity and extremism. So are you able to help me and our listeners understand the relationship between misogyny or toxic masculinity, say, and expressing violence and hatred towards Jewish people?
Speaker 3:Yeah, great question. So what we see is across the spectrum of extremist actors could be religious, political. They're primarily made up of young men. And they're primarily made up of young men, irrespective of their education or their socioeconomic class, who don't feel themselves to be on an upward social trajectory. And I use trajectory as an important point, because if you feel like you're going well in life, you're not going to go and turn to extremist narratives that offer you something else.
Speaker 3:So it doesn't matter where you're from. You might be wealthy and still feel like you're going down on this horrible path. You could be quite well educated, but at the end of the day, you feel like you're going nowhere, you're stagnant, you're going backwards and you resent that. You feel a sense of shame and humiliation. These are deep emotions that lead to anger, and anger is the driving force. Now, anger is not always a bad thing. Anger can be righteous and achieve positive social change and civil rights, but what we see is an anger that is focused on the other, blaming someone else for their particular lot in life, and Jews have always, throughout history, formed the basis for someone to resent. Jewish communities have traditionally been successful economically, culturally and really batted above and beyond their weight in terms of population size, and so for groups who are looking to demonise others and looking to find someone to blame for their particular location, it's the perfect scapegoat. In many respects, jewish communities are small. They're often quite insular, geographically centred and, to that extent, quite easy to target.
Speaker 1:That's a really different answer to what I thought you were going to say. I thought maybe you were going to say because they consider women to be less than, and they also consider the Jew to be less than or subhuman, and therefore that's how they intersect. So that's quite a surprising answer.
Speaker 2:Josh, as a sociologist, how do you explain this rise of all forms of political extremism that young, angry men seem to be attracted to, be it from the extreme left or the extreme right?
Speaker 3:I'll start at the front and work back. People get angry when they feel like they've had respect withheld from them and recognition withheld from them, and that leads, as I said, to emotions like shame, humiliation. If you've ever been disrespected, you feel that deeply, but for days the odd occasion it happens to me I'm dwelling on it weeks later it's, you know, angry about it. Same, yeah. And so take that but apply it across the lifespan of feeling that way and then take it across a group of people who might have shared similar experiences and you start to see how these groups form and the basis of their talk. You could also step back and place this in context of what's gone on really over the last 80 to 100 years. Well, let's start with the post-World War II economy, which was, on the one hand, out of the UK, centered on welfare support for the working man it was always the men in particular and a sort of role for big government you know the National Health Service and that spread across the Commonwealth countries, in, in particular, less influential in the us, but it was about developing a government that sort of looked after its people, that welfare sort of state, but continental scholars, and actually I should say it formed out of this christian socialist thing in oxford, cambridge, lse. But these continental philosophers identified big government with totalitarianism and so some were LSE and others and they left and they went to the Chicago school and so at the University of Chicago we saw the birth of free market economics. And in free market economics government's got to get out of the way. Any impediment to the free operation of the market gets out of the way. There's no space for trade unions, which have traditionally offered a form of solidarity for working people. There's no space for church and religion, which offers a form of status for the man as the head of the household but also community, and church attendance was around the 50% mark in most Western countries in the 70s. It's now about 10%. Trade union membership was about 50% to 60%, in some places down to about 10%. So there's no space anymore for solidarity and belonging and feeling like you belong to something bigger than yourself. Community is dead. I can't tell you how many neighbours I would know by name.
Speaker 3:We're very focused on the individual and with that came cuts to the economy, cuts to traditional male roles. As the economy has evolved and become more technologically sophisticated, we've gone from the blue-collar miner, sort of hero of the working class, to the service economy, which favours younger women. We've moved into the corporate world, where women have hard-fought protections against discrimination, sexual discrimination, harassment, maternity leave. All of a sudden, that idea of a job for life for the male, protections against discrimination, sexual discrimination, harassment, maternity leave and all of a sudden that idea of a job for life for the male, the single breadwinner, no longer exists. You now need two incomes to buy a home, and men are competing against incredibly well-educated, articulate women for the same jobs. And so there's this sense of nostalgia for this long-lost past where men could be men and were celebrated and you only need to have a household. You've only got to go onto these sites to look at the way they idealize the past. And so there's this you know, call for return to that, and then you see them while the nazis, for example, is there stuff.
Speaker 3:I think I've talked about kitchen, church children. That was a German translation, but that resonates with the here and now. For young men you can't afford a home who aren't necessarily getting married, because women traditionally marry at level or up. Men tend to marry at level or socioeconomically lower, and so women are less likely to marry them, and so, for the first time in the US, there are now more single men than there are women, and so we're seeing this phenomenon occur, where the feminisation of work and society, particularly due to technology, which eradicates physical differences, creates this space for this deep resentment.
Speaker 3:And where are people going Online? They're going online to find those solidarities and belongings and communities. They're forming these often hateful groups online that radicalise each other and incite and support each other and share the same views. So violent misogyny, extreme right, extreme religious organisations and groups are finding solidarities at a transnational level. Now they're speaking to each other across national borders, across state borders, and they're building these online communities that operate in the here and now, where someone might not know the name of their neighbour, but they know that their best friends are on the other side of the world.
Speaker 2:As you mentioned, josh, social media, the online world, gives places and spaces for these people to propagate their ideas and to connect and to find belonging, to spread their hate, spread their really odious views. In the last 48 hours, the social media platform X has suspended the accounts of National Socialist Network leaders, Thomas Sewell and Blair Cottrell, two men who have very much had Jews in their sights in recent years. Can you talk about the tension in liberal democracies like ours here in Australia between, on the one hand, protecting free speech and, on the other, free speech and, on the other, preventing the spread of these kinds of hate-filled ideas that ultimately do, as you've been saying, contribute to a context in which violence against Jewish people is seen and maybe even one day tolerated?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think we start by distinguishing extremism from hate, and democracy requires some extreme ideas across the political spectrum. It requires people to voice those ideas and for them to be debated, and in some cases, extreme ideas become mainstream. So I'll go back again to the civil rights movement, who were marginal in the 60s and their ideas are now embedded in our laws. It was considered extreme to believe in gay rights once upon a time, so you do need people who push the envelope and you don't always have to agree where they come from. That's an inherent component of democracy. But free speech was never inscribed in the Australianralian constitution. We are not americans where it's held up on this platform, as you know beyond reproach. I think where we have to draw a line is between extreme ideas that can be debated and hate, and hate is inherently linked to violence. And you can you can say hate-filled uh things online or face to face that have implicit in them a violence. And you talk about, talk about mass deportations. Well, you're talking about death. You're talking about destruction, you're talking about the start of genocide. So when the extreme right talk about that, well, that's at the heart of what they're talking about, this ideal picture of how it was once in Germany in the 1930s and 40s. That's their reference point. So you've got to call a spade a spade and for me it's quite simple. I think there should be a zero tolerance threshold for hate, online or in person.
Speaker 3:People tend to get away with this online because they hide behind anonymity.
Speaker 3:They hide behind masks when they show up at these rallies, and there's a reason they're hiding behind that.
Speaker 3:Because they hide behind anonymity, they hide behind masks when they show up at these rallies, and there's a reason they're hiding behind that because they know that if they put their face to that and their name to that, they're unemployable and society would reject them and ostracise them. And I think you know, listening to the parliamentary debates over the last two days around the new laws that are coming in, around mandatory sentences and so on and I'm yet to get my head around it, so I won't pass an opinion but I think we're at a point now where you've got extreme actors in society trying to foment hate violence and in a democracy, the only thing you can do is stamp it out. I think if you look at historic precinct, if it had been stamped out earlier with vigorous action, criminalisation and so on, I don't think we would have seen some of the events that we've seen throughout history. So you know, does that lead to an authoritarian state? Well, I don't believe so, but I think we do need to draw a line at hate and at violence.
Speaker 2:Was that encouraging to see that X had suspended those accounts? Because we know that things have changed a hell of a lot since Elon Musk took ownership of X and there's been a lot of concern that this is now increasingly a place home to some pretty odious and hateful actors and that that's gone unchecked. So are you encouraged?
Speaker 3:by this. I think it's quite surprising that it played out the way it did. I think what we saw was an increasing level of agility, I suppose by the government, because it struggled to get X to take them seriously and to act. But you know, first of all, they've taken down Terragram and they're talking about financial sanctions against online actors. I mean, that's pretty unprecedented.
Speaker 3:And now, more recently, dool Cottrell, more recently, joel Davis and Ezeal have all had their accounts taken down and now, using these accounts to target, harass people, make veiled threats, intimidate. You know, myself included, they've had a go at me and you know it's pathetic. But it's also something you ignore at your own peril. You know, and I think getting those accounts taken down in the context of everything we're seeing overseas and I think the context of Musk and his recent behaviour, and we're still seeing, and I think the context of musk and his recent behavior and we're still seeing it getting taken off x I think that signals a serious breakthrough for the government in regulating online hate aside from regulating online hate and putting pressure on these social media organisations to take this seriously and suspend these accounts, and aside, obviously, from empowering authorities, agencies, police and the like to investigate and to prosecute the offenders and those guilty of anti-Semitic attacks, what else can be done to halt this current wave of violence that we're seeing?
Speaker 3:Yeah, look, unfortunately we are in a period of reaction where we're scrambling to develop the laws to respond to it smack it on the head, so to speak. You know that's not sustainable over the long term. There's an enormous amount of work to be done, what is traditionally considered the soft edge of all this, but that's actually the real hard work. It's the grind, it's building dialogue, it's building connections again, because I think, generally speaking, all communities in Australia, irrespective of where people's heritage is and where they come from, have a vested interest in a safe, prosperous, secure Australia where people demonstrate a modicum of respect to one another in public space, might hold vastly different views but agree to abide by Australian law and look after our country and grow our country, because we are incredibly lucky to live here. And I think it comes down to rebuilding dialogue across different lines, rebuilding relationships and also, you know, we've seen a lot of political point scoring, a lot of public statements, but at the end of the day, we've also seen, more recently, some bipartisanship rejecting this For better or worse. Irrespective of people's political opinions, both major parties have come together, irrespective of the politics of it, to condemn it and to act and the vote, I think, in parliament today or thereabouts should demonstrate that.
Speaker 3:So it's the hard work. The real work is education, reaching the schools, reaching and developing those connections, um, not only um healing I think the jewish community's got some healing to do after as a result of all this trauma. Schools reaching and developing those connections, not only healing I think the Jewish community has got some healing to do as a result of all this trauma. But I also think part of that is reaching out and rebuilding and looking outside of community to others and rebuilding that faith in Australia and building those dialogues and connections. And you know that's not easy. You know, in fact it's probably the hardest form of work.
Speaker 2:This is a question I'm not sure that you feel comfortable in responding to, or even if you can, I'm interested as someone who looks at both the extreme left, the extreme right and also at sort of fanatical jihadist elements in Australia. Among those groups, which should we be most concerned about with regard to violence and attacks against the Australian Jewish community?
Speaker 3:Yeah, good question. You've brought me back to the point I didn't really address sufficiently around the extreme left and so on earlier as well, because young men and women are attracted to that space. But we've seen them adopt this increasingly aggressive mindset as well, and we're seeing new connections between, for example, the Lafayette and the left and so on. So there's a lot of complexity In terms of who's most dangerous, I think you know. I don't want to necessarily sit here and apportion, you know, layers to different communities and groups.
Speaker 3:I think the extreme right have a pathological hatred of the Jewish community, and always will. I think extreme Salafis have a pathological hatred of Jews, and always will. I think Christian nationalists there is an element amongst Pentecostal community and so on. They might be pro-Israel, but they also blame the Jews for murdering Jesus. As they see it, there's an anti-Semitism there. There's an anti-Semitism embedded in extreme left discourse. They would say, no, we're just anti-Zionists and they conflate the issues, but at its heart there's an anti-Zionists and they conflate the issues, but at its heart there's an anti-Semitism in terms of violent potential. I think you've got to just look to recent history and precedent. I think you're talking about, on the one hand, the Salafi Jihadists and you're talking about the extreme right. I think there's a that's where the potential for violence. We don't want to discount other potentials, but I think you've only got to look at what's going on internationally to really understand that. But we have to understand that amongst these anti-Semitic groups and the way that they share this not only anti-Jewish but anti-Israel sort of worldview and perspective, there's going to be new formations, new manifestations emerging in anti-Semitism that we haven't even yet contemplated. Sovereign citizen movements are deeply anti-Semitic and we're seeing that play out. So dangers come from a wave of potentials.
Speaker 3:I think you're lucky that you've got the community security group in the Jewish community who do an incredible job sort of monitoring it and keeping an eye on it. But I do think beyond the security element we have to look at the wider issues of the politics of it. How do you get this toned down at a wider level? And I think you've got to get the economy back on track because people aren't as angry and aren't looking to blame people when things are working for them. That's how you take the heat out of potential mass anti-Semitism. I don't want to sort of waffle, but I do want to point out also that recent research that I conducted looked at whether or not the Australian population believed that antisemitism had increased, and two thirds of the Australian population were supportive of the notion that antisemitism has increased. To point out that the vast majority of Australians opposed anti-Semitism, you know, pro the Jewish community being here and thriving and existing and being safe. I think there's a deep suspicion of extremism in Australian culture.
Speaker 2:So I think it's important to look at the positives as well as the negatives, and Josh I would add to that, and I'm not sure what your take on this is, but I think the data does indicate that the majority of Australians don't take a firm view about the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians and don't want to see the conflict brought over to these shores and look at the conflict as something that is very complex, and they prefer usually, when asked in surveys and polls, they prefer to stay neutral as prefer not to express a support for one side or the other.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think it's easy in echo chambers like institutions can be, and living in the sort of inner confines of Melbourne and so on can be, and living in the sort of inner confines of Melbourne and so on, to only hear one side. But I do think the vast majority of people are generally suspicious of extremism and an idea across the board and want to stay out of it and don't believe that foreign conflicts should be brought to our shores and play out here the way they have.
Speaker 1:So, josh, my final question for you today is how can my single hetero girlies avoid swiping right on someone who may have Salafi, jihadist, extreme right, violent, misogynist tendencies? Can you describe some maybe not so red flags?
Speaker 3:Yes, some really good points. Anyone who's going to be a bit careful here.
Speaker 1:You were going to say anyone who's holding a fish and a knife, no, I mean, yeah, I mean I like fishing myself, but I wouldn't use that.
Speaker 3:I never had to worry. I'm married for a long time, but I think there are some key indicators. I mean and I'll get in trouble for this but anyone who's following Joe Rogan, anyone who starts talking about men's rights or men's wellness and health because it used to be that you could have a conversation about men's health and have a serious conversation about what it takes to find some balance, look after yourself but now it's turned into this men's right advocacy. Many of these groups have turned into. Men are being poorly done by, mistreated. Now we need to reclaim our true sense of masculinity. There's a lot of garbage out there, so there are certain things that sort of. Bring them together. Preoccupation with UFC, joe Rogan, what do they call it? The bro-sphere or bro-culture.
Speaker 1:So if they have a photo holding Jordan Peterson's 12 rules for life, is that a red flag?
Speaker 3:I'd be running, you couldn't stop me. Anything in that space. Because again it comes back to what is the ideal man? There is no one ideal conception and on the one hand you do want a partner who's going to think and challenge and engage, but there is a certain subculture out there that emphasizes male victimhood and emphasizes reclaiming masculinity and emphasizes reclaiming traditional roles and, deeply embedded in that, a certain worldviews of the way the world should be and the way that men and women should act, and that certainly isn't supportive of any woman who's independent, working and reasonably successful in life.
Speaker 1:Okay, thank you for answering that.
Speaker 2:Well, Josh, this has been a fascinating conversation. Thanks for really distilling some very complex phenomena down for us. Really interesting stuff.
Speaker 3:Some great questions. Thanks for your time.
Speaker 2:That was Dr Josh Roos, associate Professor of Politics at the Alfred Deakin Institute for Citizenship and Globalisation at Deakin University, and that is it for another week.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to. A Shame to Admit with me, tammy Sussman and executive director of TJI, dr Dashiell Lawrence.
Speaker 2:This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King and theme music by Donovan Jenks.
Speaker 1:If you like the podcast, leave a positive review, tell your people or encourage your third cousin's cousin to advertise on the show.
Speaker 2:You can tell us what you're ashamed to admit via the contact form on the Jewish Independent website or by emailing ashamed at thejewishindependentcomau.
Speaker 1:As always. Thank you so much for your support and look out for us next week.