Ashamed to Admit
Are you ashamed to admit you're not across the big issues and events affecting Jews in Australia, Israel and around the Jewish world?
In this new podcast from online publication The Jewish Independent, Your Third Cousin Tami Sussman and TJI's Dashiel Lawrence tackle the week's 'Chewiest and Jewiest' topics.
Ashamed to Admit
Episode #38 Are Australians racist? With social researcher Neer Korn
Tami and Dash sit down with social researcher and author Neer Korn to explore the big question: Is Australia actually racist? From synagogue attacks to very public displays of anti-Zionism, Jewish Australians are feeling less safe since October 7. Neer explains why that fear - while understandable - might not reflect the full story. They cover antisemitism, institutional racism and why your average Aussie doesn’t think much about Jews at all.
Articles relevant to this episode:
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/are-australians-racist-ive-been-trying-to-bait-them-for-years
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/australias-last-antisemitism-crisis-was-different
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/survey-shows-protests-are-hurting-the-palestinian-cause
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Are you interested in issues affecting Jews in Australia, the Middle East and the world at large, but struggling to keep up with the news cycle? Are you already over matzah? Were you ghosted by a prophet on the weekend? If you answered yes to those questions, then you've come to the right place.
Speaker 2:Chag Sameach everyone. I'm Dash Lawrence from the Jewish Independent and, in this podcast series, your irreverent third cousin, your perennial Seder clown, tammy Sussman, and I call on experts and each other to address all of your ignorant questions that you've been too ashamed to ask.
Speaker 1:Join us as we have a go at cutting through some seriously chewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Jewish Independent podcast. Ashamed to Admit.
Speaker 1:Hello everyone, I'm Tammy.
Speaker 2:I'm Dash.
Speaker 1:Dash is the Executive Director of the Jewish Independent.
Speaker 2:And I'm thrilled to announce that very soon, tammy will be the Chief Vibe Officer of TJI. Pending board approval Tammy, did you write that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just edited the script real quick before we started recording.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't recall that. I had that in there originally.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, you know be the change Dash. How do I look today? Listeners can't see me, but you can.
Speaker 2:You're looking very green today.
Speaker 1:I'm looking green. Yeah, the wall behind me is green. I'm recording from my grandmother's house because I did move over the weekend and the apartment that I've moved into is very noisy. It's right on a main road and it's next to a police station so there are random eruptions of sirens every few minutes. So I thought you know our listeners may not want to hear that they might get some of Maroubra's best bird noises from outside my grandmother's window.
Speaker 2:Love that A few aeroplanes.
Speaker 1:Dash, I thought you were going to say I look tired because I feel tired.
Speaker 2:Yes, you look tired. But, Tammy, that is understandable. You've just moved apartments on the weekend.
Speaker 1:Moving is a huge undertaking. It's an enormous job and Dash. I couldn't have done it without my village, my friends, my family. I spent a lot of time with my parents over the weekend maybe a bit too much time with my dad. For those listeners who also follow me on social media, he's the guy who's always in the high-vis vest. He works in construction, in materials, handling, traffic control.
Speaker 2:Would not want to mess with your dad. I get gruff vibes from your dad not me personally, just from the little bits and pieces that I've picked up through social media.
Speaker 1:Couldn't be further from the truth. He's the biggest softie. Oh, is he. Anyway, because of his background in project management, he project managed the whole move. He got in there, he was very hands-on, he's almost 70 and he was lifting and he was on his feet from 7 am to 7 pm industrious yeah, so spending that amount of time with him was a really great opportunity for me to hear him rehash every catchphrase I've heard him say over the past 30 plus years.
Speaker 1:Such as he will answer the phone and he'll say how are they hanging Bit to the left bit to the right. Okay, doing such a great job. I don't care what anyone says about you. I think you're great.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, that one. I heard a new one from my dad.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, that one. I heard a new one from my dad. Oh yeah, he and a mate were measuring my fridge and they realised that it was going to fit exactly. And my dad said, oh, it'll fit like a finger in a bum.
Speaker 2:Okay, not sure that that's for ATA listeners, Tammy.
Speaker 1:Like a finger in a bum.
Speaker 2:Yep, yep, did not need that visual.
Speaker 1:Have you heard that one before?
Speaker 2:Never heard that one. Don't really want to hear that one again, thank you.
Speaker 1:Last week I heard you say swings and roundabouts. I'd never heard that before.
Speaker 2:Every now and again I might be guilty of a cliche or two, but like if I say something like that, I'm taking the mick.
Speaker 1:Taking the mick.
Speaker 2:I'm not being sincere.
Speaker 1:I think in Melbourne you have different catchphrases. I've never heard swings around about the four and I've never heard take the mick.
Speaker 2:Right or drain the weasel. That was a new one for you.
Speaker 1:Please let me keep that in the episode, because we're like besties. Now I'm like Dash, I've got to go do a pish, which for our non-Jewish listeners is I need to pee. And then one time Dash said I need to go drain the weasel. What about this one Dash?
Speaker 2:Go on.
Speaker 1:When you were growing up? Did you hear any boomers in your life say I'm not racist, I hate everyone the same?
Speaker 2:No, I've heard the. I'm not racist, but I heard that one. That's like the classic indicator that someone's just about to say something that actually is racist or prejudice, but they're astute enough to know that they should frame it in a more palatable fashion. But your dad just jumps straight to it. He's like I'm not racist, I just hate everyone.
Speaker 1:I hate everyone the same. I think that's a sentiment shared by a lot of Australians. What do you think as a white Anglo man? Do you perceive Australia as a racist country? Do you?
Speaker 2:perceive Australia as a racist country. Such a big, broad, general question.
Speaker 1:Sorry. You don't want to answer it, do you?
Speaker 2:As John Safran once said with regard to religious extremists in his book, depends what you mean by racist. This conversation today is, I think, going to surprise our listeners, those who adopt the immediate position that, yes, Australia is a racist country or yes, Australians have a problem with racism. Our guest today has thrown kind of new light and provoked me to rethink this question about how prevalent are racist attitudes and prejudice in Australia. What about you?
Speaker 1:It depends on what the algorithm is serving me. When I see a lot of content about racism against Jews, or I see news reports about new incidents of violence against other minority groups, then I think, yeah, okay, Australia has a racism problem. But then I might read an article like the one Nia Korn wrote for the Jewish Independent and and I might go back to the fence and sit on that fence for a little bit. I haven't made up my mind.
Speaker 2:Some people do get quite provoked by this question, particularly if you're more on the right side of politics. You sort of tend to view that Australia has nothing to apologise for or nothing to feel shameful of.
Speaker 1:Ashamed to admit.
Speaker 2:And I just think that you know, it's just not true, and Nir talks about this in his article. Maybe it's just about the level of how overt it is. Maybe that's another way of rethinking it. Maybe Australians are withholding their prejudice than other countries.
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 2:It's a question that I still don't have an answer to.
Speaker 1:Joining us in the studio today is Nir Korn, a social and consumer researcher and author. His work with the Korn Group has produced over 120 large-scale reports on Australian society. He's a popular speaker at conferences and company planning days on social issues and trends, and his range of speaking topics covers every avenue of Australian life.
Speaker 2:Nia's writing and commentary has regularly been published in newspapers and magazines nationally, including now for the Jewish Independent. Nia's three non-fiction titles include Shades of Belonging, conversations with Australian Jews, life Behind Bars, conversations with Violent Male Inmates and his latest book She'll Be Right or Will she? A Journey into the Australian Psyche. We hope you enjoy this conversation with a man who gets to talk to Australians near Corn, near corn. Welcome to the ashamed to admit studio. Thank you very much near. I understand that you've been a social researcher for 25 years. As a part of that career, you have run hundreds and hundreds of focus groups and I'm wanting to know what have you learned about Australians over time and how have you seen a change in attitudes over that time that you've been interviewing Australians?
Speaker 3:Fundamentally, australians are good people. They're caring people, they really believe in the live and let live attitude and they're respectful of each other. The radical ideas or thoughts were not present in all this time until recently. Not present in all this time until recently, and now I'm getting an inkling of it, because the entire Western world has become quite divided and no longer is there much of a middle ground. It feels like you have to take an extreme position either way, so you're either very extreme on the right or you're very extreme on the left on various issues. But while Australia still has a large middle ground, I could see us slipping towards the way America is in that sense, where the division is so strong and everyone is adamant that their opinion is the correct one as opposed to being open to others.
Speaker 2:That's so interesting. So you are charting and seeing the polarisation of our age unfolding in the course of these focus groups and conversations. Can you tell our listeners how these sessions are run, what the types of questions that you ask people and why it's such a powerful and valid insight into what ordinary Australians think and feel?
Speaker 1:You've said you try to create an atmosphere that would enable people to express controversial views, to see if you could uncover racism. So I would love to know how you set that up.
Speaker 3:Social research is really divided into two methods. One is quantitative, when you survey people and find out what they think, and the other one is qualitative, where it's all open-ended. It's not about the exact answer to which of these thoughts do you think reflects you best, but it's more like what are your thoughts, what do you believe? And the way to get at that is by having random people. I do it through companies whose job it is to recruit people and I give them a broad sense of people. It doesn't have to be very exact. I tend to divide the sexes in my groups. Otherwise you get quite a bit of tension in the group, which I don't like. I do it according to socioeconomic very often, and I do it geographically and by age, and then it's all open-ended.
Speaker 3:Traditionally, a focus group is you have a few people sitting in a lounge room or an office and you ask them questions that are about their thinking. So if they go, here's my answer. I then say well, why, how did you come to that? And what I'm doing is sifting through all the different answers to find the gold in there. What is the common factor overall? Why and how does it differ between, say, people who live in rural areas and people who live in cities and the way I manage to get them, and each one has a topic of its own generally. So you know, I might look at health and wellbeing, I might look at attitude, I might look at work, and it all depends on the topic I'm researching at the time and I will do a whole lot of focus groups and interviews on that topic and from there what I will do is write a report and then I go out and present that to a whole lot of focus groups and interviews on that topic and from there what I will do is write a report and then I go out and present that to a whole lot of interested parties who want to know what the broad understanding of people are so they can fulfill their aims. The way I do I manage to open it up, essentially by playing the idiot Like I don't know anything, and I make it clear to them I don't know anything, so share with me.
Speaker 3:Allow them to say things that are controversial is by saying that's really interesting, because in all the other groups I did, I heard something different. Or in the racism one. When I look at that, I say to people right, in other groups. I hear that migrants from this country are like this Don't you find that? And that gives them a chance to resist me. And that's what I'm looking at. How enthusiastic am I? Are they about my view and say, yeah, that's right, that's what I feel? Or look, I don't feel that way at all and to me that's gold, because they resisted me and they came up with an opinion and then I can honestly say this is what they feel, and I test them over and over to try and get that sense from them. So if I hold an extreme view, it's their opportunity to do that and kind of reflect back at me.
Speaker 3:And the most important thing is to create an atmosphere in the group that allows people to speak openly. And that's done by the introductions initially, and they go to introduce themselves and ask a basic and answer a basic question. And then we go through and suddenly, if a group is great, they've bonded with each other and I can ask a question and they will argue or debate it between themselves and I don't have to do anything. And often there's a silent time and that's very difficult, especially for me, because I feel like butting in and saying something and I have to watch myself and just sit there for as long as it takes, until somebody else is uncomfortable with the silence, and then they speak and that sparks other people.
Speaker 2:Fascinating.
Speaker 1:So, nir, we've brought you on to the podcast this week because you have just written a striking article in the Jewish Independent, and the name of that article is Are Australians Racist? And in that piece you point out that Australian Jews are rightfully concerned, even scared, by events locally and globally since October 7. So, with an eye to the spate of anti-Semitic incidents over the past few months, you ask the question is this a reflection of broader anti-Semitic feelings among Australians or is it just limited to a relatively small number of disgruntled individuals, of disgruntled individuals? So Dash and I are curious to know is Australia a racist country? But before you answer that, can we ask you what prompted you to write the piece in the first place?
Speaker 3:Because whenever you ask Australians, people tend to adamantly say yes, we are racist. And it seems to be the popular view that you read about the media, in the media constantly, of how racist a country we are. And having poked and prodded on this for such a long time, I'm adamant in my view, but it's a very unpopular one, you know. I've lost geeks over it. I've been kicked out of one of the main TV stations' newsroom. There seems to be a real resistance to it and the sense that yes, we are racist, but I can't find the rationale for it. And I also do not understand why people hold on to that view so strongly when there's very little evidence of it. And what we see is, every time there's a racial incident, every time something happens, it's immediately said see, we are racist, see, that's a reflection of who the country is. But I see the opposite. We've seen so many years where it's been ingrained on us that we're a multicultural society and, as I said in the beginning, we're inherently a live and let live society and that's the important bit, that it's live and let live. Do what you like, like be, whatever religion you are, wear whatever garb you have, except for the nikbah, and at the same time you come across people from every background in your workplace, in cafes, in festivals, and everyone gets along. And then we have something that comes along like somebody screams something on somebody on a train and suddenly it goes viral and it means proof of that. But the reason I say that we are so sensitive to it is, in fact, because we're not racist and it shocks us.
Speaker 3:For Jews, there's a sense of paranoia whenever something is mentioned that's anti-Semitic. And I would say, just because somebody graffitis a wall or puts a Palestinian flag up, that might say that that person is anti-Semitic. Maybe the group they belong to is anti-Semitic but does not reflect the popular view across the place. And even when I say, but look at that group and what they do and how we view them and look at that group, look at Asians. They don't assimilate and people just fight back against it. People don't believe it and essentially they don't even think about it.
Speaker 3:It's not an issue that's foremost in people's minds and it's also not something people want to see in Australia. They do want to see that everyone gets along. Now I should say that an exception to this is Indigenous Australians, and it's a much more complex issue. That would require an entire podcast, because there's a lot of underlying elements to it that we have to understand before we can make an opinion on that. What I find in the Jewish community is that they're so sensitive to anything that's anti-Israel, and I have a feeling of where that all comes from is a sense of panic and paranoia. And suddenly we're back in 1930s Austria. Burning cars and burning a synagogue is horrific, but again it doesn't reflect wider Australian society. People didn't sit at home, watch the TV or their screen and clap their hands in support. Yeah, look what they did to the Jews. That is not the case.
Speaker 2:So, nia, what I'm hearing you say is that there are many examples and obviously we've had some particularly recently of anti-Semitic attacks, and you would accept as valid the examples that Jewish community might point to. But what you would question is that there is a population-wide level of anti-Semitism. That you're saying. Look at the data. It's just not borne out in the qualitative data that you have seen over many years and also in the quantitative data. Have I got that right, nir?
Speaker 3:Yes, one thing that came up for me in the groups over and over again is Australians don't mind migrants. At the moment they're minded because of housing issues and et cetera. But they say look, there's one thing we expect from migrants in our country and that is leave your problems behind. And I think that those who support the Palestinian cause have done themselves and the core cause a great disservice in Australia. When they see these marches with these big b in Australia, when they see these marches with these big banners and when they see it turning violent, they say this doesn't belong in Australia. If you really want to do this, go back to your country and do it. At the same time, they see the Jewish people having these vigils with songs, with appointed speeches, and they could also look at October 7th and be horrified by it. The things that happened to people, to young people, at a music concert, at a music festival. I mean those things Australians can look at and look, I think there is a predisposition to think of people from Muslim backgrounds as being violent. You know and you hear a lot of times Muslim leaders say Islam is a religion of peace, and what Australians respond to that is really Really. How can you possibly say that when what they see is ISIS and terrorism and things like that? So they don't actually reflect that. And I've got to say that the Muslims community have it much harder than the Jewish community does. Ever since 9-11 has been that case. It's much harder to be a Muslim in Australia than to be a Jewish person in Australia. And I remember recently hearing a rabbi speak and he was saying people ask me isn't it difficult when I wear such obvious Jewish outfits, isn't it racist constantly? And he said you know, I do get nasty comments shouted at me from cars, but at the same time I have nice comments shouted at me from cars and you have to balance it out and to suggest that the person who shouts it out is a reflection of Australia. I think it's a really bad mistake to make, because our self-reflection does not celebrate the fact that we celebrate difference, but it's a reflection of the negative. So, yes, those Jewish incidents are horrendous. They're horrendous, they shouldn't happen and people wish that the government would crack down on it. So any talk, for example, of cancelling the visas of people who act like that. People said absolutely we should do that because we don't see these things.
Speaker 3:People remember one thing when they say Australia is a racist country, and that was the Cronulla riots in Sydney. And that was when there was a clash between Anglo-Australians and a certain sector of the Muslim community in Australia and that became violent. People were hurt. It spread through text messages. There were violent incidents across Sydney in different places. But think about this that happened over 20 years ago. Is that the best we can do when we think about Australia as a racist country? That was so long ago and that's what retains the memory of people. And since then there's been so little, apart from specific incidents at specific times. And when I really push people and I ask them, what do I do in the groups? I turn them to people who are obviously ethnic and I say, all right, tell me what happened to you. And they struggle and then they say you know, once we were walking and somebody shouted at me and well, okay, that's bad, but is it really that bad?
Speaker 1:Nir, I'm surprised by a lot of what you're saying. Something which stood out to me from your article was when you wrote about the institutionalised racism against Indigenous Australians. You wrote it's an ever-present stain. So how do we hold that truth whilst also talking about anti-Semitism and the Islamophobia that you've just mentioned and other forms of prejudice, without descending into a kind of competitive suffering?
Speaker 3:It's really, really complicated. The institutionalised racism is apparent in some areas and we just talked to police in the Northern Territory of Western Australia, where recent commissions have seen that that has been the case and incidents reflect that. Look at the fact that we imprison more Indigenous people per capita than any other country in the world. Look, I did a book about prisons where I went and I spoke to violent inmates, including Indigenous ones, and what they said to me is look, I'm more comfortable in prison than I am in greater society because they can feel it. You know, one of the guys told me and he was young, he was only 30, and he said to me, and he lived in Redfern, and he said to me you know, when we walk home from school, my parents tell me to avoid the police whatever happens, because it's so strong in their mind. So is the Stolen Generation, which is also very strong in their mind.
Speaker 3:Now, the reason? It's multitude reasons, but one of the biggest ones that I came across was that Australians, by and large, have very little experience of Indigenous people. There's only two categories that they know of those have made it in broader society to leadership positions the Noel Pearsons, if you like, and then there's the ones they notice on the corner, drunk and frightening, and that is so not true. When I spoke to people in rural areas, they were telling me that they have a much more sophisticated view of it. There were the Indigenous people who were totally dysfunctional in their lives, and for very good reason, and they just avoided those areas.
Speaker 3:And then there were all the Indigenous people who lived like the rest of the community, who worked with them, who shopped with them, who dined with them, and they were just living normal lives. They just happened to be Indigenous. But the overall sense is that Australians actually care about Indigenous people. They want them to succeed in life. They're ashamed by the fact that we haven't been able to resolve this, despite having so many royal commissions, that nothing has happened in regard to that and we continue to have it. They're ashamed of the fact that we stole the generations. In fact, paul Keating's Redford speech, which is very much lauded, where he said we stole the people, we did this and we did that, that would really fit the mark to be played today.
Speaker 2:Nia, the sense I get from reading your article and from our conversation today is this is maybe not how you would characterise it, so feel free to correct me but is of a relatively benign view that most Australians have to foreigners and to the other, the other and you point to this in the end of the article where you ask the question so what do Australians really think of Jews and Israel? And you mention an example or a response that Vladimir Putin is once have said when he was asked at the APEC summit in 2007, what does he think of Australia? He responded I don't. I don't think Right. So we're left with the impression that most Australians have a relatively you know benign view of outsiders and others, including Jews and Israel, and that they don't really know or really care care. What about the view that indifference is just as dangerous as explicit racism or hate?
Speaker 1:Because that's the message I received at Jewish school, especially when we were learning about the Holocaust. It was like the people who were the perpetrators of the Holocaust were bad, but so were. The people who did nothing were bad, but so were the people who did nothing.
Speaker 3:Australians don't need to think about it because they don't see the problem. Now, one of the things I've observed and I used to work at the Jewish Board of Deputies in Sydney many years ago and I used to receive all the media cuttings every day and all these publications and my head was filled with Jewish, Jewish, Jewish. What do they think of us? And when I left that job, suddenly it dawned on me it doesn't exist in the outside world. And I think, look, this has been really controversial, I'm sure, but I think part of it is the fact that we teach our children Jewish identity more from the negative than the positive. Look what they did to us, Look what happened. And I think that really sensitizes us, and I'm really surprised at the degree to which the Jews that I've spoken to really feel like this is absolute horror. How can you turn a blind eye to this? And my response is what I finished the article with when did you last think of the Rohingyas in Myanmar? I mean, their whole population is being decimated. There's a million of them living on some island off Sri Lanka as refugees. Why don't you give them some thought? And if you expect people to think about October 7th. Shouldn't you be thinking about that as well? Or what about the Yugos in China? I mean the re-education camps that they're being sent to, and I could name multitudes of issues that we ignore. And yet we expect the rest of Australia to be so concerned about the things that bother us so much, and people see that as a sign of broad anti-Semitism or latent anti-Semitism. So you're absolutely right.
Speaker 3:The people who to say that, yeah, the people who to say that, yeah, the people are silent, they're the problem. But I would ask the jews are you part of the problem or solution? You know what are you doing in your life, because obviously every community is caught up with its own issues, but it's such a focus that it makes people seek the information and ideas that reflect their own point of view and not the opposite, nothing else. I know some people who get all their news for one particular media source that tends to be all pro-Israel, all anti-Arab, and it's a vindication for them, but nobody's out there thinking of hold on a second, and my view, very strongly, is that the suffering and pain that Jewish people feel is not mutually exclusive of the suffering and pain that ordinary Palestinians feel.
Speaker 3:Now, to many people, that would make me an absolute radical, and yet I'm not comfortable with either side, really, because both views are very radical the anti-Israel camp and the pro-Israel camp. And I say that, by the way, as an Israeli former Israeli, I guess, with all his family in Israel. One of my cousins died on October 7th. I have a cousin who lost two of his best friends when he was in a very high unit of the army and they reached a trip wire and he saw them explode right before his eyes. I'm a huge supporter of Israel, a passionate one, but I still maintain what I think is a perspective that I think lacks in the Jewish community and, as I said, that's a really unpopular view to hold.
Speaker 2:It is and it will be interesting to see how people respond to your thoughts in this podcast today. We did at the Jewish Independent did a study called Crossroads 21, the largest survey of its kind of the general Australian population on their attitudes towards Jewish people and their attitudes towards the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Nia, and I have to say, what you have raised today was borne out in that data. So, yes, very low levels of antisemitism were exhibited in the responses. People had a generally, you know, relatively favourable or neutral view about Jewish people.
Speaker 2:But critically, I think this is really important to think about today is, when asked about the conflict, most Australians and I've talked about this on the podcast before most Australians do not take a strong position either for or against Israelis or Palestinians. They don't know, they don't feel informed enough to give an answer or they don't have a preference. Because you did say at the start of this conversation, you're seeing a slight radicalization in some of your conversations and some of your focus groups. People are starting to become more polarized. We're going to actually do that survey again this year. Would you expect that the data will probably be the same again, that despite October 7th, there wouldn't have been a significant shift in how people respond.
Speaker 3:We expect there to be very little shift because they don't think about it, they don't care about it. You know, most people have their day-to-day run I've got to get the kids to school, I've got to get the meal on the table, I'm worried about paying for things. So I suspect there will be some negative views of Israel because of everything they see. I mean, when they see on the TV, they see Gazans being bombed, these kids, and they can't help but think, geez, that's mean of the Israelis to do that. And then they'll see images of October 7, and it will merely reinforce their view that Muslims are violent people.
Speaker 3:But overall, I don't expect there to be much of a change. By the way, when you ask Australians, what do you think of Jews, you know they're reluctant to say, but then they'll say things like well, jews are rich, and I think it's reasonable to say that many Jews are rich. I mean, the truth is that a huge percentage of the Jewish population is very poor. The biggest housing commission here in Surrey Hills in Sydney is filled with Jews from the former Soviet Union who can never afford to live anywhere else. But it's reasonable for them to see the view that Jews are rich.
Speaker 1:Why is it reasonable?
Speaker 3:They see the you know, the fortune fire, the Australian 500 richest Australians. Richest Australians were overrepresented in that list and they also think the Jews are really smart. The Jews are very educated but overall they see the Jews have made a great contribution, not a negative one, a really positive one. But beyond that they don't think about it whatsoever. You know, it doesn't cross their mind and most Australians only interact with Jews.
Speaker 1:I am in an author's group and an author colleague of mine. She loves going and running author workshops in rural areas. She says, tammy, I never experience antisemitism when I'm there. Antisemitism doesn't exist because no one's ever met a Jew.
Speaker 3:If you ran your survey and made a concerted effort overall which is why this story is so good to hear with the arts community, you will find there a very strong view against Israel really strong, I suspect. And that's because that is where you find the if you like, the radical division. You know they're all pro because the right wing and non-arts people are anti and I think it's fair to say that. But also we are very sensitive to it. Just because a Palestinian author speaks at a writers' festival doesn't make him anti-Semitic necessarily or the organisation anti-Semitic. It just means that they are reflecting views. But, as I said, the arts community will tend in some areas to look for the radical.
Speaker 1:Well, I think it becomes anti-Semitic when there isn't balance. So it's fine for a pro-Palestinian speaker to speak at a festival, but when there are five pro-Palestinians and no Zionists or you know overtly Jewish panels or speakers, then I think people have the right to get upset.
Speaker 3:Yes, you could even call that anti-Semitic.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:You know they'd call, as you know, people rationalising it by saying it's anti-Zionist, but we all know that it's the same thing essentially.
Speaker 1:Nir, we ask all of our interviewees if they're ashamed to admit. Anything in general doesn't have to be related to today's chat.
Speaker 3:I am vegetarian for many years and I'd love to be vegan, but I'm ashamed of the fact that I can't give up dairy. I was ashamed of my views many, many years ago, you know, when I went to school I didn't stop people from making horrific remarks about gay people, about Indigenous people, about Asian migrants, and I didn't stop it. But I'd like to think that I have matured since then and so have my views, and these days I just would not tolerate it and in myself I'm proud to be Jewish. If anyone asks, I'll tell them, and if it's relevant I'll tell them, but I have no compunction in being proud of who I am. There was a period of time when I was quite religious not anymore as much and I started wearing kippah and the only people who gave me flack for it were Jews who would say right, they've turned you, they've converted you. But everyone else was just completely respectful of it. I once wore a kippah to my high school in Year 12, to school, just to see what happened. Nothing happened.
Speaker 1:Wow, you were into the research before you'd even left school.
Speaker 3:I don't know if I fell into it because I'm so interested in other people's viewpoints. I'm so conscious that my viewpoint may not be the right one and I'm open to changing it. I don't like dogma. It really bothers me. In the broader community and the Jewish community, I think you can open yourself up and you can even have contradictions in your life, because I think most people, if not all, have contradictions in their life and what they believe and what they actually do.
Speaker 1:That's a lovely way to end this conversation.
Speaker 2:It's been great talking with you, Nia. Thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3:Really enjoyed it, thank you.
Speaker 1:That was social and consumer researcher and author Nia Korn. And that's it for today's episode. You've been listening to A Shame to Admit with me Tammy Sussman.
Speaker 2:And me, Dash Lawrence.
Speaker 1:This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King, with theme music by Donovan Jenks.
Speaker 2:If you liked the episode, forward it to a mate.
Speaker 1:You can tell them that the episode was nearly as enjoyable as a finger in a bum. You can make complaints about these episodes via the contact form on the Jewish Independent website or email us. Tell us what you're ashamed of or topics you'd like us to cover. The email address is ashamed at thejewishindependentcomau.
Speaker 2:As always, thanks for your support, and I'm going to take a break for the next few weeks as I'm heading off overseas, so look out for Tammy and her special guests.
Speaker 1:We're going to miss you Dash.
Speaker 2:Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1:You got your short shorts ready?
Speaker 2:I do indeed, I'm actually thinking about going half tights this time around, but yeah, okay, because what's the weather like in the UK?
Speaker 1:Coldish.
Speaker 2:Okay, half tights I like it.
Speaker 1:See you in a few weeks. Tammy, all right, half tights, I like it.
Speaker 2:See you in a few weeks, Tammy.
Speaker 1:All right, Bye Dash. Thank you.