Ashamed to Admit
Are you ashamed to admit you're not across the big issues and events affecting Jews in Australia, Israel and around the Jewish world?
In this new podcast from online publication The Jewish Independent, Your Third Cousin Tami Sussman and TJI's Dashiel Lawrence tackle the week's 'Chewiest and Jewiest' topics.
Ashamed to Admit
ASHAMED TO ASK! With special guest Sami Shah & special co-host Anthony Levin.
Award-winning comedian, writer and professional provocateur Sami Shah joins Tami Sussman and Anthony Levin in the studio this week, but he’s not here to answer questions ... he’s here to ask them. In this loose, insightful and hilarious conversation, Sami probes the Anthony and Tami about South East Asian Jews, male circumcision and how they’d like to be buried. Expect laughter, discomfort, surprising insights and a few things you’re definitely ashamed to admit.
Subscribe to The Jewish Independent's bi-weekly newsletter: jewishindependent.com.au
Articles relevant to this episode:
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/im-part-jewish-part-australian-and-part-indian-where-do-i-belong
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/the-dads-redefining-jewish-belonging-for-their-kids
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/save-a-seat-at-the-table-for-death
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/unnecessary-alarm-over-circumcision
Tami and Dash on Instagram: tami_sussman_bits and dashiel_and_pascoe
X: TJI_au
YouTube: thejewishindependentAU
Facebook: TheJewishIndependentAU
Instagram: thejewishindependent
LinkedIn: the-jewish-independent
Are you interested in issues affecting Jews in Australia, the Middle East and the world at large? But a little bit ashamed that you're barely keeping up to date.
Speaker 2:Well, you've come to the right place. I'm Anthony Levin, filling in for Dash Lawrence, and in this special episode of Ashamed to Admit your snoodily-doodly third cousin, tammy Sussman and I will be inviting someone who isn't Jewish to raise all the awkward questions you might be too ashamed to ask.
Speaker 1:Join me and Anthony as we have a go at cutting through some seriously chewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Jewish Independent Podcast. Ashamed to Ask.
Speaker 1:Hello everyone. Welcome to another installment In the Ashamed to Ask studio. With me today is Anthony Levin. Hello, hello, thank you for having me. It's my pleasure. Anthony Levin, award-winning writer, broadcaster and human rights lawyer, whose writing has appeared in the Guardian, men's Style and Prospect magazine and academic journals and anthologies, is that you? That is me Also a finalist for Government Lawyer of the Year in 2024 and a two-time recipient of the John Hennessy Legal Scholarship for Advocacy on Indigenous Healthcare in Prison. That's you. That's not another Anthony Levin. That is me.
Speaker 2:Who is this swanker I?
Speaker 1:was going to say who is this underachiever? You're also heavily involved in Holocaust education. You're a writer of comedy for stage, film and TV, co-host of the SBS podcast Grave Matters, which won the best factual category at the Australian Podcast Awards in 2024 and the best weird category at the International Signal Awards 2024. Anthony, have I missed anything? Any other identifiers?
Speaker 2:No, thank you very much, Tammy. Other than to say very proud and doting father and husband, and I guess I just want to say you know, being a dad is probably my favourite thing, not an achievement, but just probably one of my favourite thing, right?
Speaker 1:now I'd say that's an achievement too, making it through the first five years.
Speaker 2:That's a whole other episode or a book.
Speaker 1:Anthony, who's joining us in the studio today? Who's asking us all of the chewy dewy, awkward questions?
Speaker 2:Well, look, I was intrigued by this format because it's not clear who's really kind of steering the ship here. You invited me on to be a guest host. I'm kind of like somewhere in a liminal state between guest and host, because we've invited on comedian and writer Sammy Sharpe to actually sit in the interrogator's chair, we might say. Sammy has been profiled in the New York Times and ABC's Australian Story. He's also appeared on BBC Radio 4, bbc Asian Network, tedx, the Project and the Soho Theatre. He's a very accomplished man. Young Sammy wrote and performed a two-part series for BBC Radio 4 called A Beginner's Guide to Pakistan and appeared as a panellist on QI with Stephen Fry. It's a very, you know, auspicious company there. Sammy won the award for Best Local Act at the 2013 Perth International Comedy Festival and Best WA Comedy at the 2016 Fringe World. His autobiography I Migrant I love that title, by the way has been nominated for the New South Wales Premier's Literary Award and the Russell Prize for Humour Writing, and we warmly welcome the very funny sammy shah sammy shah.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for joining us on a shame to admit sibling podcast.
Speaker 3:A shame to ask thanks so much for having me. I have many things to ask and I'm never ashamed. Wow, okay, setting the bar high, I try to Right. So I'm from Pakistan and I don't know how aware you are of Pakistan or Pakistani history or anything like that, but it's not a country that is known for its friendliness to the Jewish peoples. If there was to be a kind of a list of countries that are most to least anti-Semitic, we would definitely be in the top ones of most anti-Semitic.
Speaker 3:But what was surprising was when I was growing up, we always had rumors that there was somewhere in Karachi the city I'm from, which is the biggest city in Pakistan somewhere there was a synagogue that had once been used. Never found it, always heard of it. It's like a rumored thing. City I'm from, which is the biggest city in Pakistan somewhere there was a synagogue that had once been used. Never found it, always heard of it. It's like a rumored thing. There's also a graveyard, a Jewish graveyard, there in Karachi that's been maintained, but I didn't know that there were Pakistani Jews or South Asian Jews until years later when I met a writer named Muhammad Hanif. He's a Pakistani writer. He went to Israel for a Jerusalem, for a literary conference like a literary festival, you know, in the 90s, and he met a Pakistani Jew over there from Karachi who came up to him inside weeping and saying I haven't met someone from Karachi since 1948 and things like that. It was an amazing thing. Is that a known thing that they were or are South Asian Jews, tammy?
Speaker 3:do you want to jump on this one.
Speaker 1:No, Anthony, you go ahead. People want to hear from you. You're a fresh mate on this podcast.
Speaker 2:That I am. That's a great description. So, sammy, because I know a little bit about your background, I did a little bit of reading on this. I confess I don't know a lot about Pakistani Jewry, but I did know that there were South Asian Jews. I knew enough to know that those communities were small and when I read into the experience of Jews in Pakistan, I immediately cancelled my trip there, right you know, and I sought a refund from Pakistan Air.
Speaker 2:But I did discover that there was a synagogue and that there was a community of about 2,500 Jews at the turn of the 20th century. Okay, so not a sizable community. And what I learned and I'm really learning, just like our listeners might be learning about this is that when Israel declared independence in 1948, there was effectively a pogrom in Karachi where that synagogue was burned down and Jews were targeted and attacked, and that naturally had an enormous impact on the willingness of Jews to stay in Pakistan. So many migrated to Israel and other places after that and America and the community shrunk and it kind of became, as far as I understand it, it's like there's only one Jew in the village now, kind of thing.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. It reminds me of that story about Afghanistan, where there's I don't know if they're still there, but they were doing the Taliban rule even there were two Jews left in all of Afghanistan and they both hated each other. They were kept in separate prisons because they kept arguing with each other all the time.
Speaker 3:It felt like such a cliche to me. I've spoken about this before, but the amount of anti-Semitism that I absorbed growing up in Pakistan is something that I only really became cognizant of when I left the country, and, like many people, there's that thing of I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm anti-Zionist or whatever that kind of catchphrase becomes, where it took me a long time to go. Am I even qualified to make that claim, Like I really need to be introspective about it? But as a result, there's a lot of stuff that I've absorbed which I still don't know whether it is a terrible stereotype or it's an innocent question. So here's one.
Speaker 3:So I don't know, if you know, my partner, Kylie, is pregnant and you know we might have a boy. And the question I have is because circumcisions are definite, right, I'm, I'm an ex Muslim, but I'm still, you know, ex Muslim enough that I'm, I still like, prefer a circumcised penis on a boy over not? She's obviously Jewish, so she'd want that as well. Does the rabbi bite off the tip of that penis? You know, will I get sued for this? Like what is the facts? There we are in treacherous territory here.
Speaker 3:See, I didn't realize, like I didn't realize. This is such a treacherous question to ask, then right.
Speaker 2:I guess we just need to be mindful that neither of us are moyals, so we are not trained to perform this ritual. Only one of us, in terms of Tammy and I, have experienced it, and I wasn't conscious to remember it, but I can speak to that, and I guess we're not experts on halakhic law or practices like that, but we have, I guess, enough lived cultural experience to have a perspective. And some listeners may say this is nonsense, but anyway, my perspective, I suppose, is that from my research and understanding over the years, is that for the most part cultural Jews or even moderately observant Jews in Australia would have that ritual performed in a medical environment or by a medical practitioner. But it is not without controversy, of course, because this is an ancient Jewish practice and it's touted as, or described as, our covenant with God, albeit a covenant that only pertains to one half of the ethnic group, which I find problematic from a kind of more feminist point of view.
Speaker 2:But there's also questions and these have been raised in the legal context, about the lawfulness of the practice. But both Tasmania and Queensland have published their law reform commissions respectively, have published reports on the issue and looking at both its criminal and civil consequences. Because I'm a lawyer, this stuff interests me. So there's some really vexing issues when the right to religious freedom and to choose how you exercise your religious freedom clashes with the best interests of the child, because this is a non-consensual, non-therapeutic procedure on a neonate. So it's very serious and in no other area of the law do we allow this to happen. I mean, you will be thrown in jail if you tattoo a child of that age or any age up to majority really. But in this area and we talk in the law about whether a person is competent a minor can be competent, capable to consent to certain things. But this is not that. But we allow it because we say that this is a religious practice which has a rightful place in a democratic society where people choose how they express their religion.
Speaker 3:I'm not expressing a view on that in particular here, because I don't think it's the place, but I think that's what makes it treacherous, both from an in-group and an out-group point of view, and that's really fascinating to me because, okay, so like, as I said, muslims also circumcise, the same as Jews, and I always had in my head that if I ever have a son, even though I'm not a practicing Muslim anymore, circumcisions are. It's just a thing that is not questionable. It is definitely going to be a thing that my son will also have. Why should I be the one to suffer? Also, let's be very honest here. Uncircumcised penises are very gross, but they do. They look. They look like they're wearing a sweater made of skin. It is. It is just the weirdest looking thing. They ruin porn for me.
Speaker 3:But what I will say is that when I came to australia, was the first time that the question of this being a debated subject even occurred to me that there was this, you know, conversation happening that, oh, is it cruelty? Is it something that we're inflicting upon children? Do they have consent to this? Is this, you know, gentle, mutilation, etc. Etc. And someone I was arguing with poorly, I should add put the point out where they're like well, you're against female, you know, circumcision, for example. I'm like of course that's horrific. She's like why not the boys then? Why don't you have the same standard there and I didn't really have an answer to that. But at the same time and it's really interesting that at the same time as an ex-muslim I can't.
Speaker 3:I've let go of so many things. I eat bacon, right, which again I understand. Talking to you two jews might not be the most you know correct thing to be saying, but michael Schaefer is a good friend of mine and he gave me permission to rant about this, so it's fine. So I've obviously given up a lot, but I haven't given up this one weird archaic. You know practice and I'm not even willing to consider giving that up for some reason. And I always wonder. There are so many Jews who are they're Jewish but they call themselves atheists before. That's a very common thing in the jewish community, like I'm jewish but I don't believe in god, like that's a common refrain. But is giving up the idea of circumcision something that's still a taboo even for them, you know? Are there any non-circumcised jews?
Speaker 1:I suppose is the weird roundabout question I just asked yeah, I know of some, I've seen a few, but then again few dimensions, anthony.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my son is not circumcised. We made a very conscious choice. Okay, my wife is not Jewish, but we are very strongly cultural in our practices. We observe as much as we can, capacity permitting, but we made a choice not to. And if you want to get technical for a moment, there are, I think, generally considered to be four, or sometimes five types of FGM, right?
Speaker 1:And one of them what's FGM?
Speaker 2:Female genital mutilation. Okay, thank you. One of them is the excision of the prepuce. Now, when you talk about male circumcision, it's the same tissue that's being excised, okay, and it has a similar function and it develops from the same anatomical foundational structure in the womb in terms of I just want to point out, by the way, that when you booked me, I bet you didn't think excision of the prepuce would be a sentence.
Speaker 3:You'd be saying I really didn't, but that is a great sentence. Excision of the prepuce is my new punk rock band name.
Speaker 2:Continue my new punk rock band name is fentanyl by mouth. All right, we can duke it out for best garage band of.
Speaker 3:Battle of the bands.
Speaker 1:Sounds good? Yeah, Well, my punk rock band is Dick Cheese Continue.
Speaker 2:Excellent. I don't think anyone is going to be necessarily persuaded not to practice this ancient ritual on the basis that there are similarities to FGM. People make moral distinctions about these things for all sorts of reasons. I don't know that we want to talk about them in this chat with you, sammy, because that would probably consume all of the oxygen in our rooms, but I think it's a really interesting issue. I don't have the answer. I think there is actually a really interesting practice which I will mention, which I think they call a Brit Shalom, which is where you can do the ritual of the circumcision without any cutting, or you do a symbolic cutting, so you still observe the covenant, so to speak, but you don't cut the skin of the child. And I tried to find a practitioner who could do this when my son was born and couldn't find anyone familiar with how to do it in Australia.
Speaker 1:You should have called me.
Speaker 3:Really.
Speaker 1:I'm a LifeStages celebrant and I have, as part of my package, pun intended. I have a service that I provide called Brist no Snip.
Speaker 2:I wish I knew that, tammy, it's not too late.
Speaker 3:All right. So then that comes to the next question I had, which is what's a Britmila? What is it? What happens? Do I have to have candles? Is there going to be presents? Is there a cake? No cake, what?
Speaker 1:happens, there has to be salmon, even if you're vegan Salmon. That's a weird choice.
Speaker 3:That's the only fish I don't actually enjoy.
Speaker 1:All right, okay, that's not written in any formal text. Yeah, what is a Brit Mila? What is a Briss Anthony?
Speaker 2:Honestly, I am not qualified to really answer this question, tammy, you would have seen. Have you ever been to any? I have not, except my own, and it was a riotous affair.
Speaker 3:Are there pictures? Do you? Do you remember? Like looking at the pictures, were there 10 people? Was it just family?
Speaker 2:I believe it was just family and maybe some close family friends. I would have to ask my dad about that. But, tammy, I'm wondering if you've been to a few, because when I've spoken to some of my jewish female friends, they have all said that they found it pretty tough and that they kind of had to look away and that they were upset afterwards because it's like my baby, you know. So what's your perspective on that?
Speaker 1:So I have been to a few, but then again too few to mention. No, I have. I've been to quite a few, mostly out of obligation and fear of being excommunicated. So I have not wanted to go, but I've gone.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but that's like any wedding invite as well.
Speaker 1:Nobody wants to go to a wedding either.
Speaker 3:You go out of obligation and a fear of being excommunicated. I love a good wedding.
Speaker 1:Out of obligation and also for the kiddush, for the spread afterwards. People do it differently. Some might have it in the home and they might have, yeah, a gathering of a lot of people with food and celebration afterwards. I find those really difficult. I spend most of the time crying inappropriately because the children do not belong to me, and I should say that there are some mohelim, mohels, mohelot plural of mohels, mohels and pediatric surgeons who agree that having it in the home it sounds counterintuitive but is in a sense more sterile than in their rooms where they get a lot of kids with, you know, who bring in their different germs.
Speaker 3:Right, that makes sense actually Interesting yeah.
Speaker 1:And then, as far as I know, in Australia there isn't a medical rebate or private health doesn't cover that, because it's a what would you call it Optional.
Speaker 2:Non-therapeutic, not medically indicated, unless it is, of course, unless the doctor says it's necessary.
Speaker 1:But what I'm seeing this is becoming a new trend is to have it done in the rooms of a pediatric surgeon and done by someone who is a pediatric surgeon, because our non-Jewish listeners Sammy might not be aware that Moyles don't necessarily have to be pediatric surgeons. I know that there's an ophthalmologist who does them.
Speaker 2:I thought you were going to say Moyles ain't Moyles, and copying that old.
Speaker 3:I really thought you were about to say that.
Speaker 2:Sorry, tammy.
Speaker 3:Wait, sorry. You said the Moyles can even be an ophthalmologist. The Moyle is the person who because I genuinely have no idea about the, so the Moyle is the person who does the SNP, yep, but wouldn't it make sense for that to be a paediatric surgeon?
Speaker 2:He said in a very high voice Okay, it would Don't need to be a paediatric surgeon, it would, he said in a mehaw voice. It would Don't need to be. And it's really a matter of choice, isn't it? The family might choose to do it in a more traditional way, or they might want that medical training, because there have been a few publicised cases from both Australia and America, from memory, of mishaps, botched jobs, yeah, causing serious harm to the child, requiring, you know, surgery afterwards and ongoing issues. So there is a small risk of that, that there can be complications. And of course, we probably should mention, tammy, that the traditional rule is eight days after birth. That's when it's performed, but that is not. I understand that a lot of people will wait a bit longer if they don't, if that particular observance isn't as important to them.
Speaker 3:Isn't that the same for the naming of the child in the Jewish tradition as well?
Speaker 1:Yes, so traditionally the boy will not receive a name until oh so that's the same ceremony.
Speaker 3:Yes, I did not know that. All right, interesting, okay, so that helps a lot.
Speaker 1:Traditionally, yes, so more and more families in my circles are choosing to have it done in paediatric surgeons' rooms. This was the case for my nephew. I was pregnant with a child at the time. I went to this particular surgery to support my sister. We had a cry together, so I was anticipating the baby in hysterics. And, yeah, I was anticipating quite a traumatic experience and it wasn't at all so.
Speaker 2:Are you talking about for you or for the baby wasn't at all, so are you talking?
Speaker 1:about for you or for the baby, for the baby. He barely cried. My sister was fine. Yeah, we had a little cry in the lead up to it happening. I was holding her hand and then it was kind of like an anti-climax.
Speaker 3:Here's the thing that I find interesting is, as far as I know, medically there's no reason for it, right Like that whole argument of it's actually safer and cleaner. It turned out wasn't scientifically accurate correct.
Speaker 2:A lot of those medicalized rationales have been debunked or thoroughly critiqued. Yes, and there are still those who prosecute the case that it is beneficial because it helps people to avoid certain kinds of STDs in certain countries where there is less access to contraception. So in places like Africa, in some countries where there is less access to condoms, there are some studies that suggest that those with circumcision have a lower rate of passing on or even acquiring those diseases. But we have to account for the very simple solution to that, which is let's find ways to ensure that that access to prophylaxis is higher.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and also we just have showers with good water pressure here. You know, on the hygiene side of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think a lot of those arguments they persist but they are not received as strongly. And even if you look at the policy positions of the medical profession, including the AMA and other bodies, they've softened their stance on male circumcision quite a lot over the last decade and now they are generally saying it's a family's choice but we don't recommend interesting.
Speaker 3:Okay, all right, are we? Going to spend the whole episode talking about dick, or my next question was going to be about menu, because that's the only part I can really control is what is traditionally served. You mentioned salmon. Um, are we just talking about a whole fish, or or what's the preferred method? What's the best food you've eaten at a bris? What should I be aiming for here?
Speaker 1:It's very Ashkenormative of me to say salmon.
Speaker 3:I have never heard that word before in my life but, I automatically find it hilarious.
Speaker 1:I mean maybe a challah, some bagels, some hummus, everyone wins. Yeah, I rock a challah, some bagels, some hummus, everyone wins.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I rock a challah. I can do bagels. I'm not a fan of hummus, but okay, I'll consider it. We're catering your son's brisket, right now.
Speaker 2:Is that what we're doing here?
Speaker 3:Well, I mean, yeah, that's the only thing I'm in charge of really is the cooking side of things. And so you know, I'm just wondering what the procedures?
Speaker 1:are you make your own challah? I've seen as well, Sami.
Speaker 3:I do. That's my obsession. I have an Instagram account if anyone wants to follow. There's a really famous Instagram guy named the Challah Prince. He is phenomenal. He makes great challahs and I learned a lot by watching his videos. And then I decided that I should be the Kala King. But because the last name Shah means king, so I was like I'm the Kala Shah. So if you go on Instagram, kala Shah, that's my account and you can see my Kala progress there. Amazing, I don't know, like that's.
Speaker 3:It's one of those things when you're having a boy, particularly in this day and age, there's a lot of things to think about and a lot of the questions that come up. You know, how do you not raise an incel, how do you not turn him into an Andrew Tate supporter, and like. Those are the questions that everyone's kind of really grappling with, like now that we've seen that show on Netflix, how do we look at our sons and do a good job, as opposed to just, you know, neglecting them as has been done in generations past? But to me, those are arbitrary questions. The biggest concern I've had as soon as I found out I'm having a boy is what's the process and procedures around the circumcision. So this doesn't answer a lot of my concerns. Thank you, can I ask?
Speaker 2:you a question, Sami, Because you describe yourself as an ex-Muslim and you've come from a country with such strict laws about criticizing Islam and you have a Jewish wife. How do you intend to kind of marry or merge traditions from the two, Like, for example, can you be a cultural Muslim?
Speaker 3:Yes, I mean, look, muslims will say no, but I'm very big on self-definitions. You know this is. You don't get to tell me who I am and how I get to live my life. And I consider myself a cultural Shia Muslim, you know, because I'm from the Shia subset of Islam and my family is a Shia family, and so you know, for example, I don't believe in God. I think religions are marvelous things that were created by humans, and that makes it more exciting to me than the idea of some glowing guy in the sky. You know, throwing this down, that's fascinating to me.
Speaker 3:I grew up with certain cultural practices, like I guess Eid is a big one that I follow, which is a big celebration. You know. It's like the Jews have Hanukkah, christians have Christmas, muslims have Eid. Everyone kind of has their own kind of celebration there. And then the cooking side of things, which is, of course, south Asian but also Muslim, because the food has got those kind of elements to it and at the same time, because I grew up as a Shia Muslim, even though I no longer believe in the divinity of it all, I do think Sunnis can go fuck themselves. I'm kidding, I'm kidding, of course I don't, but I do a little bit, but there is. You know those things.
Speaker 3:There's a conversation I had with John Safran, actually years ago, and I was saying how atheist are we? Because he and I were discussing our atheism and he's a Jewish atheist and Muslim atheist and he said we came to it too late, like we didn't grow up as atheists, we weren't born atheists, right? So there's some things you'll never let go of and the example he gave was so true I still have it which is karma. Like I'm obsessed with karma, Like I really think if I do something bad, something bad will happen to me. If I treat someone poorly, I will be treated poorly. Like those are things that are scientific fact in my head.
Speaker 3:There's a thing in Islam we have called Nazar, which is, you know, when someone is envious towards you, they put like a bad juju on you, the evil eye yeah, exactly, evil eye. Same thing. And like Kylie will tell you how embarrassingly hard I believe in Nazar, where, like, the way to ward off Nazar is you sacrifice a black goat and distribute the meat to poor people. I can't do it in Melbourne. People look at me funny when I do it. So I send money to Pakistan for my family to have a goat sacrifice and have the meat distributed.
Speaker 3:But you know, I'm a rational man. I'm a 46-year-old rational man with rational beliefs and I believe in science and the supremacy of logic and reason. And I will kill a goat right now if I feel like I've got some bad luck coming my way, like so there's certain stuff that's just there, like it's just a cultural thing that I'll never be able to let go of and I've made my peace with it. I enjoy it, my culture. It does define a huge part of my identity, but I also am very cognizant of the fact that any Muslim I talk to will think I'm crazy for thinking that I qualify as Muslim without believing in the supremacy of God and the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad and all of those things.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's so interesting because I feel like sometimes when you're a cultural Jew and not particularly observant, as I am, but cherry pick what you like to do and build it around this self-directed kind of spiritualism, you can feel. Like when you're in the company of very orthodox people, you can feel a bit inadequate, and I have found I've had mixed experiences. Some are very open and welcoming and just want to invite you in and show you things that you maybe aren't used to, whereas I can remember a particular experience when I was in Jerusalem and this man stopped me and he really accosted me to come in his house and wrap tefillin, because he could see that I was a foreigner. You could see I was Jewish, but not from Israel, because of my clothes and whatever and he sort of was so persistent. He basically followed me down the the road and he stopped me and he was like why won't you come and wrap tefillin? When was the last time? I think that's called kidnapping.
Speaker 2:Anthony, I think you got kidnapped yeah, yeah and you know what I'm talking about with the tefillin right like the.
Speaker 2:I mean I couldn't explain to you the, the religious the wrapping, the leather, the the black, yeah around the arm and then the no, he was asking me when was the last time you wrapped tefillin and um or put it on? I've had that question a couple of times, a couple of times from religious people. Any time these days someone offers, I say yes, because it usually has been years. And it's just one of those things I have to say since October 7 that I feel more drawn to those practices even though I'm not religious. I want to do it because it gives me some sense of like ancient connection to my people that goes back you know 3 000 years or more and that I just feel an enormous sense of you know just goodness around it, even though I don't believe in this practice that I completely relate to, because I've always been very skeptical of religion and have not been a very active Muslim.
Speaker 3:And when I was even a practicing Muslim and I was in university in America in between 1998 and 2002. And at the time I was drinking alcohol and fornicating and all of those things that you do as a good college student, and the thing that happened was 9-11. And post 9-11, it became very scary to be a Muslim in America, right? Because all of a sudden it was like all Muslims are terrorists and that narrative started and that pushed me towards being more Muslim. So for the remainder of the year or so that I was in the US, because people were saying, don't you dare be a Muslim, I suddenly was like well, no, I shall be one, because that is part of my identity and you don't get to tell me who. And I suddenly was like, well, no, I shall be one, because that is part of my identity and you don't get to tell me who. And I felt that connection and I embraced it more. I started praying five times a day. I would go to the mosque, you know, I'd meet other Muslims and spend time with the community.
Speaker 3:It's when I moved to Pakistan years later or into that at the end of 2002. And I then lived in a Muslim country. Then I actually stopped being Muslim because I felt suddenly A the pressure was no longer. That's an interesting thing as well, because I want to ask you about that, both of you is the pressure to be a Muslim is very heavy from Muslim communities because Islam, particularly, is a proselytizing religion. Right, we're always looking to increase our subscriber base, like there's always that aspect of you know, how many more Muslims can we add to the numbers, whereas, as far as I could tell, judaism doesn't have that. You're not looking to convert people to Judaism. No, we don't want them.
Speaker 1:Right. The Jews are looking to convert them to Sky News, but not to.
Speaker 3:Judaism. But what about the conservative Jews? To the liberal Jews or to the cultural Jews? So when Anthony said you meet Orthodox Jews, are they trying to get you back into the fold? Do you feel a pressure to do that, or do you think they're just being hospitable?
Speaker 2:Well, I like to think it's the latter, that they're just being warm and hospitable and sharing their much deeper knowledge of my own religion with me. But, Tammy, I guess I was thinking about your experience, because I suppose we're both on a similar point on the spectrum of lapsedness in a way, but both feeling that pull towards the culture, and I've certainly felt that kind of need to reinforce. Have you felt that too?
Speaker 1:I have and, following a conversation we had with Ben M Freeman on this podcast a few weeks ago, I no longer and this is only in the past few weeks, and this is only in the past few weeks I no longer refer to myself as a lapsed Jew. I am embracing my Jewishness. It is my ethnicity, it is my birthright, it's my ancestry. It's really that conversation and I've had this feedback from a lot of people that conversation reframed everything to the point where and I'm not trying to convert you, Sammy, but the fact that you're married to a Jewish woman and you bake challah and you are having conversations with John Safran and you are involved in a Jewish community Ben M Freeman and I, speaking on behalf of him, would agree that you're Jewish.
Speaker 3:I mean, look, I do the same with many Christian things as well. I also, you know, make great Christian cakes and things like that. I'm just saying You're also Christian. I completely, yeah. I like to think of myself as a person who is outside all of it and therefore can be in whatever he likes, but I pick and choose. I mean, some of my heroes are Jewish. For example, I was discussing this with Kylie the other day the two things I love are stand-up comedy and comic books, and both of those are Jewish art forms. So there is that whole connection there. But the idea of how the orthodox and the lapsed and everything kind of connect is really interesting to me because, like you said, tammy, you no longer consider yourself a lapsed Jew. Now does that mean when you partake in the rituals of Jewishness, like, for example, a religious event, do you believe in a higher power now, or is there a level of atheism that's still present, or was that ever there? Because I don't have that part yeah, I don't have that part.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't have that part either. I long to have that part. Really so there's a God hole.
Speaker 3:There are many holes. Well, no, that's a Marc Maron description. I'm quoting Marc Maron, the comedian.
Speaker 2:He says there's a God hole and you're filling it with things.
Speaker 1:It's in the chest, above the waist. I think there's a spirituality hole. So I'm envious of my friends who believe in a higher power. I feel like there's an ease, there's a routine. I put it in the same category as when I'm envious of a friend who doesn't analyse things too deeply, who are really, really happy with their mediocre partner working in a job that doesn't take up too much brain power.
Speaker 3:Oh dumb, people have the best life.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying that she's dumb.
Speaker 3:I'm just saying, of course you aren't, of course you aren't. She loves Fast and Furious movies and is always surprised when there's a new one, and we love that about her, yeah.
Speaker 1:And the people listening underneath me. It's not you.
Speaker 2:If you think it's you, it's not you, and if you're the one thinking, that can't be me, it's you yeah, fair enough.
Speaker 1:So that's what I long for.
Speaker 3:I long for that belief that there is something looking out for me, but do you still enjoy and I think this part is possible do you still enjoy the ritual for the sake of ritual?
Speaker 1:Yes, I think a lot of authors, a lot of writers and creatives talk about this. But especially when it comes to mourning and grieving rituals, I really enjoy grief. I really enjoy grief. I really enjoy death. Yeah, much more than marriage rituals, for sure. I think there is something therapeutic about saying the mourner's prayer, the Kaddish. Yes, I don't believe that there's God, but I think there's something in the rhythm of saying that prayer, there's something comforting.
Speaker 3:So would you both and this is for both of you, tammy first and then Anthony want to be buried in the Jewish way if you were to die? God forbid. You know, heaven forbid tomorrow. And also, was that always the case, or has that changed?
Speaker 1:post-October 7th I thought about this in 2006 when I made a will.
Speaker 1:I went to a family friend, a family lawyer, and I said I want to be cremated, I want it written in my will, and my family friend said, sure, happy to do that. Just to let you know, the family doesn't really check the will until after you're buried and when you're dead you kind of don't have much to say. So I said, fine, let's do that. I spoke to my family about it. My mum's really into pottery and I really liked this vase that she made out of mosaiced pieces of smashed crockery from our childhood. I said I want to be cremated and put in that she said absolutely not.
Speaker 1:Then, as a marriage celebrant, I officiated a funeral that took place in a crematorium and I went backstage and saw what that looked like almost fainted from the smell, and then I decided I don't want to do that, there must be another way. And then last year I heard this fantastic podcast not sure if you're aware of it, sammy. It's called Grave, grave matters and it's co-hosted by anthony levin, uh, who I don't know if you've heard of him. Have you, anthony?
Speaker 2:never.
Speaker 1:No, it was this clown co-hosted by anthony levin and nadine j cohen, and that made me rethink everything again, and now I think I want to be turned into liquid. I want, want to be what's the scientific term.
Speaker 3:Aquamated? I've never heard of that as an option. Yes, like water cremation.
Speaker 1:You've asked this question to the right person, Sammy Water cremation.
Speaker 3:Hang on, hang on. Basically, they turn you into a liquid form and then pour you into the ocean. Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2:I believe you can be turned into a liquid form and then pour you into the ocean. Is that what you? I believe you can be turned into a liquid, but that generally that process, as I understand it I'm no expert produces a similar kind of output to a regular furnace based formation. It's just using water alkaline hydrolysis to get there, so it's just a different and it's arguably less carbon intensive process as well. So thank you for the plug, tammy.
Speaker 3:By the way, At the end of cremation, you get a jar full of ashes. At the end of this, do you get a smoothie? Like what exactly are you? Is this boba? What am I getting here?
Speaker 2:It's a smoothie you would send back at Boost Juice, right. But I think, look, what I can say is that the field of possibilities has opened up so radically in the last few years that you can do almost anything. You can be turned into diamonds, you can become a firework, you can be liquid, you can be a smoothie. You can really, honestly, you can do almost anything. It's really touching tabby that you were affected by. You know those, those conversations, because that's really nice. That's really why we do it. Shammy, like like my brand, is partly death right. So this is something I've thought quite a lot about and, in answer to your question, I don't want to be buried in a Jewish cemetery, even though that's where all my family are.
Speaker 1:Same.
Speaker 2:But I am very partial to a form of organic reduction which is currently not legal in New South Wales. It's called natural organic reduction and it basically involves chucking someone in a vat with some bark chips and some alfalfa, closing the lid and leaving them to kind of ferment for a few weeks. That's a very crude description. In the more sophisticated facilities that do this, in Washington, for example, it takes about six to eight weeks to reduce a human being to about eight bags of soil.
Speaker 3:That's not that different from the Zoroastrian method which I don't know if you know about, which is the Tower of Silence, where basically they cover you in yogurt, lay you down in open air space and let the birds consume you. You know the carrion.
Speaker 2:Yes, so we don't have the carrion so much here, but this method is very environmentally friendly. It's effectively carbon neutral if it's done properly. And I like the idea for two reasons. One, because I like the idea that you can become soil and return to the earth and that that can be shared with so many people. Like everyone can get a little bag of you and take you home and put you in the garden right, I really like that idea. But I also like the fact that it doesn't contribute to the destruction of the planet. That's a big one for me and it trumps my desire to be rotting next to my grandmother or my mother.
Speaker 1:Yes, and also because the Jewish cemetery in Sydney is really far away from most Jews and people don't like to schlep very far. And so the idea of me being there, even though I'll be with my old ancestors, my future, my kids, I don't want them to have to go. Oh, we have to drive to Rookwood. That decision is also based on me not wanting to burden my children any more than I inevitably will.
Speaker 3:That is a very Sydney excuse, though that is very much a Sydney-siders hate traveling from one part of the city to the other part of the city more than any place I've met. So because? All right, so that's interesting to me, because neither of you want to be buried in jewish cemeteries, but also neither of you want to be buried, it feels, whereas I have the opposite thing. Theoretically, I shouldn't care what happens after I die, but the idea of being turned to ash or liquid or any of those things freaks me out. I want my body whole and I think it's because of that childhood indoctrination into the idea of the Day of Judgment, which, in Islam, what happens the Day of Judgment is all the dead rise up and then zombie walk to God and get judged and I'm like, well, if I'm Ash, then how do I rise up again? Which I suppose is a childish kind of metric in the back of my head. But more than that, I just like the idea of being in the earth and my family coming to visit me. And you know, the joke I always say is I'm going to hire a woman to come and lay a red rose on my grave every time my family is nearby, or and a woman to come and lay a red rose on my grave every time my family is nearby and another person to come and pour a glass of whiskey and throw the glass at the gravestone and walk away angrily and they'd be like what the hell was he up to when he's alive? But I do like the idea of a grave.
Speaker 3:I love going to graveyards, like you know the one in Melbourne. I don't know if you've ever been to the one here. It's called Graveyard. It's a huge graveyard near Princess Park and there's a Jewish section. There's obviously a Christian section, which is the majority of it. There's also a Chinese section. There's an Italian section. There's a few Muslim graves. I really like it. I like the idea of you know someone coming to my grave and I always wonder whether that is induct. You know whether that is induct. You know that, whether that's a little bit of the muslim in me still being reluctant to let go of that side of it or not. So I find it fascinating that both of you, even though you've gravitated more towards your jewishness in the last few years, have found this as an aspect that you're still fairly confidently not going to compromise on.
Speaker 1:But we're probably not representative of the wider community, would you say, anthony, should I do an Instagram poll following this to see where we are?
Speaker 3:I know more Jews like you guys than I do who aren't yeah, although it might be just because the communities I hang out in are more comedy and stuff like that. But yeah, I know more non-practicing than I do. In fact, the only like practicing like not orthodox, but like not orthodox but like believing Jewish comedian that I know would be Alex Edelman and he's in the US and he kind of stands out for that reason Good flex.
Speaker 2:I would hazard a guess that this might be a little bit generational and that maybe our peers in their mid-40s and late 30s might have more congruent views on this issue than their baby boomer parents, for example.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it could also be like our parents, the boomers, could afford to buy a house. They could also afford to buy a plot, but our generation can't even afford to rent, so we're not even thinking about buying a that's not a bad point, by the way, that is expensive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, big funeral really has a stranglehold on uh, on what you can do, and uh makes it difficult apparently like.
Speaker 3:So the italian people I know from the Italian community. They've told me and this might be apocryphal, but I'm pretty sure it isn't that some of the funerals can cost and the gravestones and everything, because they're marble and all that can cost up to $100,000. Like, families go into debt. Burying someone yes, the way you know weddings and stuff. So it's kind of crazy that way as well I don't think that's apocryphal.
Speaker 2:I I have heard that too. Um, probably 100k is probably at the top of the spectrum there.
Speaker 1:But yes, yeah I'm so glad that you asked that question, because now I know that when anthony dies, he wants to be kombucha for a bit um, I would like to turn to tea green tea tea.
Speaker 3:I'm a green tea fan.
Speaker 1:And you want to be bone Sammy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I want to be the entire whole piece of me. I want to be buried like Lenin. It's a see-through plexiglass thing where you can still see my body mummified 100 years later. I want people to come and visit. We're not talking about. John, we're talking about the, yeah yeah, yeah, no, no, vladimir, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I think that's a great way to wrap up today's conversation.
Speaker 3:From birth to life and penises in between. We got everything done.
Speaker 1:Sami Shah, thank you so much for joining us on A Shame to Ask. You've been a dream guest.
Speaker 3:I've been degrading the podcast everywhere I possibly can with my appearance, but thank you for indulging me.
Speaker 2:That was Sami the Holla King Shah, and that's it for this week.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to A Shame to Ask, a shame to admit sibling podcast with me, Tammy Sussman and Anthony Levin, who is filling in for Dash Lawrence. This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King, with theme music by Donovan Jenks.
Speaker 2:If you like the podcast, leave a positive review, tell your people or encourage your third cousin's cousin to advertise on the show.
Speaker 1:Yeah, tell them that this episode was nearly as enjoyable as an Anthony Levin kombucha. You can tell us what you're ashamed to admit via the contact form on the Jewish Independent website.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for listening and look out for another instalment next week.