"The privilege of a lifetime", with psychotherapist Brandon Srot

Ahead of his appearance at this year's Limmud Oz, Sydney-based psychotherapist, leadership coach and all-around mensch, Brandon Srot, chats with Tami and Dash about saying sorry, broiges and what he calls the "privilege of a lifetime"

Plus, Brando discusses the challenges of therapy in the world after October 7 and reveals his (not so shameful) shame. 

See Tami & Dash in a LIVE recording of Ashamed to Admit at Limmud Oz Melbourne Sunday, 8 June.

Note on this episode: When asked what he wished clients would do more of, Brando spoke to "putting oneself on the line" and seeing oneself as "part of the traffic," meaning, seeing what it is that one brings to a situation. While he was thinking about interpersonal and relational challenges when answering the question, Brando recognises that his reply can be misunderstood outside of its context and wants to emphatically stress that this may not be relevant to incidents of trauma, abuse, violence or loss. 

Articles relevant to this episode:

https://thejewishindependent.com.au/limmud-oz-program-highlights

https://thejewishindependent.com.au/a-nation-still-enveloped-by-suffocating-trauma

Subscribe to The Jewish Independent's bi-weekly newsletter: jewishindependent.com.au

Tami and Dash on Instagram: tami_sussman_bits and dashiel_and_pascoe

X: TJI_au

YouTube: thejewishindependentAU

Facebook: TheJewishIndependentAU

Instagram: thejewishindependent

LinkedIn: the-jewish-independent

Transcript

Episode Introduction

Speaker 1 0:07

Are you interested in how Jewish therapists have been navigating the emotional, ethical and political dilemmas that have surfaced in therapy rooms since October 7th?

Speaker 2 0:17

And do you find it hard to apologise for things that you've said and done?

Speaker 1 0:22

If you answered yes to one or both of those questions, then you've come to the right place.

Speaker 2 0:28

I'm Dashua Lawrence from the Jewish Independent and in today's episode, your third cousin, tammy Swisman, and I will be talking to a Jewish psychotherapist, leadership development facilitator an all-round community gem.

Speaker 1 0:43

Who knows if he'll be ashamed to admit anything. It's season three of this TJI podcast and we seem to be dropping our shame.

Speaker 2 0:51

Some of us more than others, Tammy.

Speaker 1 0:53

Come along for the ride, as we have a go at cutting through some seriously chewy and dewy topics.

Speaker 2 1:00

Welcome to this week's episode of A Shame to Admit. Hello, I'm Dash. Would you like a lift from the airport this weekend, Lawrence?

Speaker 1 1:19

And I'm Tammy. That would be lovely. Thank you, sussman Dash. That's really generous of you. I'll send you my flight details.

Speaker 2 1:31

Well, I will have to do it now, won't I, given that that's been put out there on air? Yeah, sure, send me your details, and if I can't do it, I'll send a driver.

Speaker 1 1:40

Okay, I would like a pink Hummer.

Speaker 2 1:44

Can't do that.

Speaker 1 1:47

That's the vibe I'm bringing to Limwood. Ask the executive director of the Jewish Independent for approval for that purchase. Okay.

Speaker 2 1:55

Claim has been denied.

Speaker 1 1:58

By the way, how is the promo going for Limwood this weekend? And I don't mean on your socials, which you're terrible at, I mean in your family group chat. Is your partner coming? Your partner's sister? Your partner's parents? Who's coming? Who am I meeting?

Speaker 2 2:16

Look, limud Oz is just one of those events in the Jewish community that is on my calendar, locked in every year. If you love a gathering of speakers, be they cultural, academic, fun, political, comedic, You're taking this down a promo line.

Speaker 1 2:39

That's not where I was going with this. I want to know who you've reached out to. Who is coming to see us live?

Speaker 2 2:48

I don't have anyone coming to see us live Right. All I know is that there are a lot of people out there have come up to me in the last couple of weeks and said, seen the program, seen the schedule, I'm going to be there and I've said great, thank you.

Speaker 1 3:05

Not good enough.

Speaker 2 3:06

Okay.

Speaker 1 3:07

Okay.

Speaker 2 3:07

What do you want me to do? Like wear a big billboard and go out onto the streets of Caulfield over the next few days and promote.

Speaker 1 3:14

That's not what I'm asking, dash. I'm asking for you to reach out to the people in your WhatsApp groups. Everyone knows that that's how you close a deal. You book tickets through a WhatsApp group. You're not doing it through Instagram. You're not doing it through Facebook, through billboards. It's going to be in Susie's family group chat Now. We have been besties for over a year now and I've only met Susie over our recording software. I've not met her in person. So what's going on? Will I see her there?

Speaker 2 3:50

Probably not, because I expect she'll be in the depths of toilet training that weekend and you remember what that's like.

Speaker 1 3:57

And her parents.

Speaker 2 3:59

They're also going to be away that weekend.

Speaker 1 4:02

And their synagogue choir. I'll bring someone, Someone. He says One person. This is just unacceptable.

Speaker 2 4:15

I'm a busy man, what can I say?

Speaker 1 4:17

I'm really pulling more than my fair share of weight here. You're not hustling hard enough.

Speaker 2 4:20

I know, I know. So Tammy clearly is trying to concoct some conflict, because on today's show we'll be discussing the art of apologies and therapy.

Speaker 1 4:32

Two big themes in my life and possibly in yours.

Speaker 2 4:35

Brandon Srot is our guest today.

Speaker 1 4:39

Brandon Srot is a Sydney-based psychotherapist who specialises in working with trauma, grief and loss, personal discovery and relationships therapy.

Speaker 2 4:49

Brandon also delivers leadership development programs for people and organisations across Australia and beyond.

Speaker 1 4:57

Today we're getting a little teaser for the sessions he'll be running at Limwood Oz in Melbourne this weekend.

Speaker 2 5:03

Just a little reminder that Tammy and I will also be there.

The Human Development Journey

Speaker 1 5:07

But for now, enjoy this chat with big macher himself, Brandon Schrott. Brandon Schrott, welcome to the Ashamed to Admit studio.

Speaker 3 5:29

Hello, I'm so honoured to be here with you both and all of your listeners.

Speaker 2 5:34

Brando, we are so honoured to have you in the studio today. Tammy, just mentioned in your biography, you essentially work in what's called the human development sector, or movement. Like you, are someone who I think is fundamentally devoted to making human beings healthier, happier, more functional in different ways, whether it's in the workplace or through your work one-on-one with clients. My hypothesis is you developed some of these skills and these interests in working with human beings through being a Jewish youth movement leader. Is that right? Tell me if I've kind of misdirected that.

Speaker 3 6:22

Yeah, it's a great question and a wonderful reflection and I think you've hit the nail on the head. I often say, as do many of my friends and colleagues, that our youth movement training certainly outweighs any other sort of formal training that we did in life. And yeah, I think it's very true for me. I mean, I grew up in Habonim Dror. I'm a very proud graduate of Habo. You're a Habo boy, I'm a Habo boy. Yes, through and through.

Speaker 1 6:48

We have a few non-Jewish listeners. Are you able to just give a little overview of what Habo is?

Speaker 3 6:54

Habo is the short term of endearment for Habonim Dror, which is a global Jewish socialist Zionist youth movement. Yeah, that really has centers all over the world and it's all about Jewish education, Zionist education, youth empowerment and it's just a wonderful space for young people. And, yeah, I spent many years in the movement and I think that is really where I sort of discovered my passion for education, for facilitation, for informal learning, for human development, for what happens when people come together in safe, nourishing spaces, what can emerge between people when their common values at play. And yeah, I think it really opened a whole new world to me of possibility which has really, I don't know, set me into a particular course in my life Did you grow up as quite a sort of sensitive boy?

Speaker 2 7:47

In some of our encounters in the past I immediately sensed someone with great sensitivity and really a very good antenna for understanding people and great intuition for other human beings, which is a rare gift, brandoo. I'm imagining this has been a core characteristic of yours as long as you've been.

Speaker 3 8:08

You've been alive well, firstly, I'm very moved to hear that. So thank you for your very kind words. I do think I was a sensitive child and I still think I'm a sensitive adult. I'm a sensitive person and I think I have a lot of pride in that actually, because I think that with sensitivity comes an attunement to other people and their emotions, their experiences in life, their needs. So, yeah, I take a lot of pride in being sensitive. I think, unfortunately, in our current culture perhaps there's a sense that, oh gosh, you know that's like fragile if you're sensitive. But I take real pride in being sensitive, yeah.

Speaker 2 8:46

Brandon, listeners will detect in your accent a South African accent. Yeah, and I am wondering, as someone who I think grew up in the 1980s and 1990s a little bit in South Africa and maybe a little bit in Australia, how was it to be that sensitive boy? Because society has changed its view around boys and sensitivity and there's perhaps more acceptance of, you know, diverse personalities and certainly there is not that Shame yeah, shame around. I certainly felt it growing up as a sensitive boy. Shame about being, you know, not being tougher or harder. Was that your experience in the kind of cultural context you grew up in?

The Art of Apology and Forgiveness

Speaker 3 9:35

Yeah, I think in South Africa you know, I grew up in the, as you said, in the 80s and 90s there was, and maybe still is, a particular masculinity in the culture and it was, I would say at the time at least, one of real dominance, given what was happening politically in the country at the time too, and sort of power over others. I do feel very blessed in a way that I don't feel like my sensitivity was ever the sort of object of disdain or challenge. I was probably more contending with my sexuality more than my sensitivity, and I get that there's a Venn diagram happening there too and they are interrelated. But you know I was never overtly antagonized or bullied for being sensitive or for dealing with my sexuality. I wasn't out as a child, I was a young person, but I'm sure everyone knew at the time. So there was nothing overt. I think it was more sort of contending with myself and maybe an inner struggle, more than something from the out coming in.

Speaker 1 10:40

Brandon, or Brando as you're known to the people close to you, and I'm going to pretend to be one of those people today because I'd like to be closer. Before we get into more serious stuff in this interview, can you please tell us what kind of therapist you are? Are you more of a let's talk it out kind of therapist, or a let's sit in silence and stare into the void until the awkwardness gets too intense and clients just blurt things out?

Speaker 3 11:13

Your question makes me laugh because I mean, you've got to love these stereotypical depictions of therapy, right. But look, in all seriousness, I don't think I see them as either. Or I'm certainly like a let's talk it out therapist, and I would say I'm very much one who values and appreciates working with silence, because I think that silence is also a way of communicating many important different things that we don't necessarily communicate in words. So when we're in silence or when we're sitting in silence, we might be remembering something, we might be processing something, we might be feeling something, we might even be trying to understand something. So silence is also, I guess, a place where we can gather our thoughts and gather our words.

Speaker 3 12:03

So I think there's a lot that's actually that can happen in silence, and I get to that. You know, oftentimes silence can be miscoded or just coded as resistance or disinterest or even a form of protest. But I think that silence can be a way that we really also honor the important material of our lives. So I think it can be really varied and I think really the skill or the trick is knowing how to work with silence, how to allow silence, how to hold it, how to speak to it, how to unpack what it represents.

Speaker 1 12:38

Thanks for that answer, brandon. That was beautiful. So the reason why we've brought you here is because both Dash and I really like you and just wanted to spend more time with you, but also to promote your Limud session this weekend. Your Limud session about forgiveness, saying sorry, sounds both beautiful and beautiful terrifying. I'm curious to know why is apologizing so hard, even when we know we're in the wrong? And I ask this question as someone who comes from a long line of people who find it extremely difficult to apologize. It's it's Broigus central in my family.

Speaker 3 13:28

All right. Well, firstly, I'm really intrigued that the topic, or the session topic, is both beautiful and terrifying, but maybe we can leave that for another conversation. I think, at its core, apology. The process of apology, when done meaningfully, is a very vulnerable process and I think that when we apologize we really acknowledge to ourselves and to others that we're imperfect, that there's something in apology that recognizes that we're flawed and that we're limited. We're human beings, we're not perfect creatures. And in that recognition we are perhaps required to admit that I've maybe hurt you or I've offended you, I've betrayed you, I've misjudged you, maybe I've done something significant that has really really come to hurt you in some way.

Speaker 3 14:21

And that's a really hard thing to do because it's hard for us, just at the simplest level, to admit that we got something wrong or that we did something bad. We don't like to admit that we got something wrong or that we did something bad. We don't like to do that. It can feel very exposing, especially when we are living in a, in a culture, in a world which tends to tell us to armor up and to protect ourselves and to be gone, you know, to move through the world with a bit of protection. This can be very sort of counter-cultural to expose ourselves, to want to then open ourselves up to imperfection.

Speaker 3 14:52

And I think too that oftentimes we hide behind intent. You know, oftentimes we'll hear people say things like oh, I didn't intend to say that or I didn't mean that. And when it comes to apology, we're not actually interested in intent, because apology is about impact, and at some point we can no longer hide behind the intent of what we had in mind. But actually it's about the impact. What did my words or my actions or my inactions or my silence do to you or cause for you? And that's what I mean about meaningful apology. It's about really reckoning with the impact of what we've done or not done. And that can also be very confronting, especially for ourselves.

Speaker 1 15:36

Well, that's the terrifying part. You've just answered the question. It's because it's so exposing. It's like I would rather stand completely naked in front of someone and say here are my imperfections than here's how I've hurt you.

Speaker 3 15:52

Yes, yes, and I guess there's something interesting in that too, as you say that, because perhaps an apology or that recognition with self is actually much more internal than being seen naked. It's a much deeper window into someone, I think.

Speaker 1 16:09

Yeah, Dash. Do you know what Broigus is?

Speaker 2 16:13

I sure do. Well, you know, I work with you, so I'm regularly finding myself in forms of Broigus.

Speaker 1 16:20

Broigus, so Dash, exists in a Jewish community, is partnered with a Jewish woman raising Jewish kids, but did not grow up in a Jewish family. So that's why I'm asking this question what does the word broigus mean to you, dash?

Speaker 2 16:35

Broigus, or the notion of disagreement with a lot of heat, a lot of tension. Conflict is probably a better translation for it. Am I right in saying that it's a universal thing? Better translation for it? Am I right in saying that it's a universal thing? Right? But I see what you're getting at, tammy, and I'm curious to know, with Brandon, as someone who is Jewish is very much embedded in the Jewish community, your practice, brando, is kind of on the edge of the Jewish community in Sydney, at least geographically speaking, I imagine. I don't know. A lot of your clients are Jewish, yeah, so would you say that we are when we're talking that there is a particular Is there a particular brand of Jewish conflict?

Speaker 1 17:24

is what Dash is trying to ask you.

Speaker 2 17:26

And are they more prone to? Are you more prone to having these conversations with your Jewish clients than you are with your non-Jewish clients?

Jewish Wisdom on Repair

Speaker 3 17:33

So interesting. Look. I just want to say at the outset that whenever I hear or say the word Brueghus, it sounds like a term of endearment to me for bronchitis. Do you hear it at all? I don't know. There's some weird association there for me.

Speaker 1 17:49

Yiddish is just, I find endearing yeah.

Speaker 2 17:53

Interesting. It's one of those Yiddish words that hasn't really made its way into the English language, vernacular in the way that, like Klutz or Schlepp, has.

Speaker 1 18:01

My hypothesis is that no one else can do broigus as well as the Jews. To me, broigus doesn't just mean a heated argument or conflict. It means they're out, not invited to the wedding.

Speaker 3 18:14

Well, I might have to gently challenge that assumption.

Speaker 1 18:18

Go ahead.

Speaker 3 18:20

Well, I would love to believe that broigus is maybe culturally distinct to our people. Certainly the word or the language is, or for it is might be, at least From my perspective. You know, I've probably worked with hundreds and hundreds of individuals and couples at this point in my clinical career from all different sort of cultural and family systems and sadly what I found is that it's not culturally distinct. We might have our own particular ways of doing conflict, but certainly I have yet to encounter a system that is immune to conflict. And you know we have a word for it. We call it broigus. It's one of the words we might use to refer to it.

Speaker 3 18:58

But you know, in other systems it might just be called a feud or a family secret or a cut-off, which you've sort of just alluded to before. And I just think that it's part of human nature that we have conflict and we don't always know how to deal with it because we're not trained there's no course, there's no school subject on how to deal with interpersonal conflicts or family conflicts. So we find all these different ways to try to manage it and oftentimes it leads to a cutoff or to silencing or to excommunicating someone or to never talking about a particular topic. You know the elephants in the room or all those sorts of things. So yeah, I think it's a bit more universal than distinctly Jewish.

Speaker 1 19:39

And yet, in Jewish tradition, we are supposed to take sorry quite seriously, aren't we? Because there's even this deadline that we have every year, and that's Yom Kippur. So what wisdom can we borrow from the Jewish time frames when it comes to repair, and do we have to explain the word repair to the boomers listening?

Speaker 3 20:05

listening. Well, maybe just in case it's not going to hurt anyone. But yeah, repair is a lovely term that we use in the field for I would say the coming back together or the restitching of connection between people or groups of people after a conflict.

Speaker 1 20:28

A rupture.

Speaker 3 20:29

Or a rupture. Yeah, ruptures and repairs sort of go hand in hand. And you know, some of the literature will tell you, will tell us that we should try to repair within at least 72 hours, or a minimum of 72 hours after a rupture. Yeah, which is very, very hard to do. But then you have the grace of our Jewish calendar which says you've got a rupture yeah, which is very, very hard to do. But then you have the grace of our Jewish calendar which says you've got a year, you know, at least within 12 months or by 12 months, we should have that conversation or make the attempt to repair. And yeah, I mean, I think in some ways we've sort of computed this idea of Yom Kippur as saying sorry, and I won't give away too much about my session at Limudaz, but it is that piece that I'm really challenging in the session. That forgiveness and apology is much more than saying sorry. Those who get to come to the session will get to have sort of an embodied experience of that. Leave that to be a little mysterious. I like that embodied experience of that. I believe that to be a little mysterious, I like that.

Speaker 3 21:32

I do think too that there's like some very beautiful, there's some beautiful wisdom in the Jewish tradition around apology, around repair work, around forgiveness. And I go to Emmanuel Synagogue in Sydney and in one of the sanctuaries, above the ark, it's written know before whom you stand. I love this line. I often think about it when doing repair work, like my own repair work in my own relationships, or when I'm facilitating repair work with clients, because I think there's a real wisdom in knowing before whom we stand, like know your audience, who are you speaking to? And I think sometimes when we can see the humanity or even the holiness in the people that we're speaking to, and I think sometimes when we can see the humanity or even the holiness in the people that we're speaking to and trying to repair with, it can soften a bit of our own defensiveness in that moment and it can open us up a little bit to a healthy, meaningful repair. So I think there's a lot of wisdom from within the Jewish tradition and canon.

Speaker 3 22:27

And you know, I think too about like the word shema, listen. It's sort of like not lost on me that the most central prayer in our tradition begins with this word, listen, and it's such a hard thing to do. And I think forgiveness and apology is as much about listening as it is about actually talking and owning up to you know, to what it is that we've done or that we're apologising for. Yeah, but how do we listen, you know? And one of my favourite prayers in Judaism is from the morning prayers, and the English translation to this particular prayer says blessed is the one who spoke and brought the world into being. And I just love this idea that words create worlds and that our world is created through language and speech and words. And I think about that a lot too. When it comes to sort of repair, forgiveness, apology. What are the words that we're using? How are we speaking?

Speaker 3 23:26

And we know that, you know, communication is only 7% about the words and 93% about how we express and convey those words, but I just think there's a lot that we are bringing into being and there's a lot that we are creating through our words, and we have a real opportunity there when we are requesting or seeking forgiveness through our words.

Speaker 1 23:46

I'm so excited for this session.

Speaker 2 23:49

And I know why, tammy, because we've got some repairing to do. Don't we Tammy's birthday this year? Brando, I forgot I was a day late, oi, and I don't think she's forgiven me since then, and I'm not sure that I fully repaired.

Speaker 1 24:06

I am genetically inclined to hold a grudge. That's true, Brandon. You have another Limud session as well.

Navigating Therapy After October 7th

Speaker 2 24:15

I'm really curious to hear what comes up in this conversation. The three Jewish therapists explore the impacts of October 7th. We all know that the Jewish community has some terrific psychologists, psychotherapists, psychiatrists. It's innate to Jewish people that working with the psyche is part of the game. So we've got yourself, vicky Gordon and Julia Bloom to talk about the experience of working with clients post-October 7th. Experience of working with clients post-October 7th. Tell us what kinds of conversations have been surfacing in the therapy in the supervision room in the time since October 7th 2023.

Speaker 3 24:59

Yeah, well, I think that there's sort of three distinct categories that I could probably bucket those into. One very small bucket has been the clients who know that I'm Jewish and who have in some way tried to reach out to me in the therapy room in the therapy session to check in on me, like how I'm doing, how my community is, how my family is. A lot of my clients know that I travel to Israel regularly for work so that they know that they're these connections to what's unfolding. And there might only be a few, but they are very, very special, I think, in a way for reaching out and that's new, like that, doesn't? That never really happened before with the sort of reaching out in this way to me as a therapist in the room.

Speaker 3 25:50

Then there has been a bit of a bigger bucket of voices in the room that are anti-Jewish and anti-Israel and that is very, very difficult to.

Speaker 3 26:02

I mean I'll talk more about this in the session at Limudaz, but it is very difficult as a Jew and as a Zionist to hold space for that.

Speaker 3 26:11

I've had to really grapple with a lot internally and really sit on the edges of my tolerance and examine what that means for me and what it brings up for me and how I show up in that and what I do and what I don't do in that, how I show up in that and what I do and what I don't do in that.

Speaker 3 26:31

And it's also been interesting in terms of how those sorts of conversations have at times taken me into a different role in the therapy room. So at times I've been sort of seduced to want to go into, you know, an advocate for the Jewish people, an advocate for Israel or an educator on history, and clearly that's not my job and no one will ever pay me for that because that's not my job or my skill set. It's just been interesting to notice that impulse to want to go there. And then the third bucket is really from my Jewish clients, which are, you know, a big part of my clientele and just like enormous grief and re-traumatisation and disorientation in the world, confusion, fear, I mean. The list really does go on With the second group.

Speaker 2 27:25

Have some of those clients been aware that you are Jewish and in some ways either trying to provoke you or making a statement to you? Or is it just they're just not aware of your Jewish identity and they're telling you about their views on the conflict and it's just coming up. And which one is it?

Speaker 3 27:47

It's both. So some do absolutely know that I'm Jewish. I have a lot of Jewish books in my office that are visible. I talk about being Jewish from time to time and there are definitely some who don't know that I'm Jewish. And certainly since October 7, I've sort of volunteered that I'm Jewish a lot less. So some clients are sort of newer clients post-October 7, so perhaps I haven't yet revealed to them hey, I'm a Jew. Are they trying to provoke me Possibly? I mean, we have to hold that as a hypothesis because that could be an important aspect of the work. I haven't necessarily coded it yet as a provocation towards me. I sort of hear it more as them reviewing and processing what they're going through in their lives and what they're thinking about what's happening in the world.

Speaker 2 28:40

Just to jump in there for a moment, if I may. It's interesting to me to hear that these are clients that are not Jewish and presumably they're not Palestinian or maybe you've got some clients that are but that it is enough of a theme, the conflict, that they are raising it in their sessions. That in itself is significant, isn't it?

Speaker 3 29:01

Absolutely Look. I think of the therapy room as a little microcosm of the broader world and in many ways, whatever is happening outside in the world in some way at some point comes into the therapy office. And I often tell my clients and myself you can't be in the rain and not get wet. I don't think you can live in the world today and not be affected by what we hear and by what's unfolding and what's happening. And so when they bring it up in the therapy room or in the therapeutic space, I think this is a result of the fact that they are wet from the rain. Right, they have thoughts, they have opinions, they have reactions, they have ideological perspectives that they're navigating, that have ideological perspectives that they're navigating.

Speaker 1 29:47

Have you ever had any clients say I don't want you to be my therapist anymore because you're a Jew. But they don't say Jew, they say Zionist.

Speaker 2 30:02

And, equally, have you ever had instances where there has been disagreement and strong gulfs between the two of you, but over time you've been able to overcome them?

Speaker 3 30:09

Yeah, this is harder to talk about. Like there's two clients that come to mind, I have to try to talk in a de-identified way, I doubt that.

Speaker 1 30:17

What are their names and addresses?

Speaker 2 30:20

And their Medicare numbers as well.

Speaker 3 30:22

I doubt they're ever going to hear this podcast, but in case. So I did have a client for a number of years who is Middle Eastern and I thought we had a very strong rapport and, interestingly, for a long time before October 7, we would discuss the fact that I was Jewish and I was very connected to Israel and that he was of Muslim origin and of a Middle Eastern descent. You know we would often talk about that sort of meeting between differences or different sides of the aisle in therapy. You know he would often tell me about what he was exposed to in the education system as a child, about Jews and about Israelis and about Zionism, and we managed to find our way through that quite comfortably, in a productive way, but since October 7, he hasn't come back to therapy. Since October 7 happened and I can only be left to my own devices to guess why and what that means and what that represents.

Speaker 3 31:28

And another client of mine after October 7 I posted something on Instagram but then, if you recall, that, like blue tile, with the Magenda vid and the words I stand with Israel and it was a few days after October 7 that I posted it and I didn't know at the time that somehow, because I'm very technologically challenged, everyone knows this about me I didn't know at the time that he was following me on Instagram. I have subsequently learned how to make an Instagram profile private, which I instituted, but I didn't know this at the time. And he really challenged me on why and how. Dare I say that I stand with Israel. And he was a long-term client I'd been seeing for many, many years, on and off you know different periods of his life, and I was taken aback by it.

Speaker 3 32:22

I just didn't expect it, and it was so much in the immediacy of October 7, I was in my own sort of tribalism and chaos and trying to just make sense of everything. I didn't expect this. I didn't see it coming. Anyway, I took a weekend to think about do I reply? How do I reply? What do I say? What do I not say? Eventually, I did write back to him and I explained to him what those words I stand with Israel mean to me at that time and I invited him to a non-therapeutic conversation.

Speaker 1 32:57

Wow.

Speaker 3 32:58

Yeah, I invited him to like maybe we could go for a walk or have a coffee somewhere where no one would know who we were to have a conversation about this, because clearly we were coming from different perspectives. And, yeah, he never replied and he never gave me therapy.

Speaker 1 33:17

You cured them with your amazing therapy and they no longer need therapy at all.

Speaker 3 33:23

Let's go with that, Tammy? Yeah, let's take that at all.

Speaker 1 33:31

Let's go with that. Tammy, yeah, let's take that. You mentioned before that you had some. Do you call? Them clients, not patients clients, clients who reached out to you, who weren't jewish, just to check in on you are they your favorites now? Do therapists have favourites?

Speaker 3 33:44

They do On the record or off the record.

Speaker 1 33:49

You can't answer that, can you?

The Therapeutic Relationship

Speaker 3 33:52

No, but I can maybe hear the question in a different way.

Speaker 1 33:56

So how are you hearing the question?

Speaker 3 33:59

I do have favourite clients. Okay, those are the clients who come to therapy open-minded.

Speaker 3 34:05

Oh, I see it's a very safe answer see it's a very safe answer it's a very answer, but it is an interesting thing because often and I think khan, who was one of the sort of early psychoanalysts not maybe, not that early, anyway, you can fact check me on when he was around, but, um, I'm pretty sure it was him who said that oftentimes people come to therapy to replay their neuroses right, they don't come to change, they just come to replay their neuroses. Yes, and does that resonate? I mean, ironically, I think that some people do come to therapy closed to the process. They come to sort of defend their positions. They come to sort of defend their positions. So when people come with an openness to the process, it certainly makes it a lot more enjoyable and productive.

Speaker 2 34:55

What's one thing you wish that clients would do more of? You know, sometimes I'm like very self-conscious about how I am showing up in my sessions with my therapist and I'm very aware that you know there are conversations I continue to play out of every he never just sort of shakes me and says you just don't understand, do you? Just I've told you know? Never, of course, because he's never going to tell me what he actually deeply darkly thinks.

Speaker 3 35:20

I think, sort of the one of the first thoughts that came up to your question in my mind was to put yourself on the line as a client. I think we can all benefit from that putting ourselves on the line, which is daring to expose ourselves and daring to see ourselves as imperfect and flawed and limited. And this in a way goes back to the earlier conversation about forgiveness, and I know that that can be incredibly terrifying to do, but I think that if we have the safety of the therapeutic relationship and the therapeutic space to do that, it can be very, very productive, because oftentimes we like to externalize everything. It's that person's problem was what they said to me or what they did to me, or it's always extent not always, but oftentimes it's externalized when we are able to put ourselves on the line, we're able to see what's our part in the mess.

Speaker 3 36:17

One of my favorite quotes it says you're not stuck in traffic, you are the traffic, and I love for clients to be able to see and myself included, I'm also a client in therapy right, I think it's important for us to be able to see that we are the traffic, that we are also contributing somehow to, to what is happening in our lives and what's happening around us. If we can have this sort of the space and the support to do that in a gentle, loving, compassionate way, I think it can be very revealing.

Speaker 1 36:47

Oh, that's lovely. It's so different to what I thought you were going to say.

Speaker 3 36:51

Oh, what did you think I was going to say?

Speaker 1 36:52

I thought you were going to say like just can everyone please just go and get a life and be a little bit more interesting. I want some juice.

Speaker 2 36:59

This is like something that's quite 1990s about you, brandy. You probably don't realise it. You're like one of the few people I know that has a quote in their email signature. You still have it, but I absolutely love it. I don't want you to change it, because every time I read it when I get an email from you, I go I think oh, brando is such a good guy, bless you. This quote really resonates with me and I just want you to speak to it briefly. So the quote is from Carl Jung, one of the greats of psychotherapy. The privilege of a lifetime is to become who you truly are. Why that quote? Wow, why that?

Speaker 3 37:47

quote. Wow, why that quote? Well, the quote did used to change every now and then I'm just going to put that out there but I did land on this one and it's been there for quite a few years. Why that quote? Because I think one of the things that it denotes to me is that we are always changing and that we're always in flux and that we're not stagnant creatures.

Speaker 3 38:15

It is sort of that cliche that the only constant is change, but we are always changing and quite literally, as sort of strange as it might sound, who I am right now is not who I was an hour ago, and so I think that this quote for me just reminds me and I hope it reminds others that we're always becoming more of who we are, and I hope that it gives us all permission to embrace that and to recognize that I don't have to be set in my ways, I don't have to be rigid in what I thought or what I think or what I did or what I do, that I'm allowed to evolve, and I think you know, evolution is the secret to survival Like we have to allow ourselves to evolve, and so I think that's what Carl Jung is touching on in some way for me in that quote.

Speaker 1 39:06

And so I think that's what Carl Jung is touching on in some way for me in that quote Dash. Just so you know, when I get emails from Brando I get tailored ones specific to me. So at the end of his emails to me there's a quote. It says a ring is round and never ends, and that's how long that we'll be friends.

Speaker 3 39:22

I do pride myself in having a bespoke service.

Speaker 2 39:24

Well, I'm happy with the Carl Jung one. I think it's very powerful.

Speaker 1 39:33

We need to wrap up and I need to ask Brando if there's anything he's ashamed to admit in general.

Closing Thoughts and Limud Oz Preview

Speaker 3 39:36

Oh my God, there's so much that I'm ashamed to admit. Maybe I'll just say that, while I absolutely love this podcast, I am ashamed to admit that I've only been able to listen to two episodes this whole year so far.

Speaker 1 39:50

Why.

Speaker 3 39:52

Because I just haven't had any time.

Speaker 2 39:54

The existential psychotherapist doesn't have time, and he's feeling shame about the fact that he doesn't have time. Brando, we're here to give you permission. Thank you. You need to go a little bit easier on yourself. Not working so?

Speaker 3 40:07

hard, so I hope it's not too much of a bombshell before we run out of time.

Speaker 1 40:11

Speak for yourself, Dash. I'm not giving him permission. He needs to like cut back on some white lotus and start binging on. A shame, to admit.

Speaker 2 40:21

There's a lot of episodes to get through.

Speaker 3 40:24

But the two that I listened to I obviously loved and I will make much more of an effort to get back on track with the Shamed Tidman.

Speaker 1 40:31

Thank you. The podcast loves you yeah.

Speaker 3 40:34

I think I've told this to both of you. I love the synergy that you have between the two of you.

Speaker 2 40:39

We try our best. We're going to work on it this weekend at Limwood, oz, when we see each other.

Speaker 1 40:45

Thank you so much for joining us today.

Speaker 3 40:49

You're so welcome, thank you. I feel very honoured to chat to you and your listeners and I hope it's been helpful in some way.

Speaker 2 40:57

Looking forward to seeing you this weekend at Limwood Oz. Bye.

Speaker 3 41:01

Likewise, my friends. I'll see you there.

Speaker 2 41:04

That was Brandon Zrott, who'll be presenting this weekend at Limwood Oz.

Speaker 1 41:10

We'll also leave some information in the show notes and just a reminder that Dash and I will also be presenting this weekend at Limwood, oz, melbourne. We'll be recording this show live, so it's time to book your tickets to see us on Sunday afternoon at 4pm. Do you live in another state? It might be prudent to book your flights as well. Okay, that's it. I'm plugging it with the plugs.

Speaker 2 41:38

And that is it for this week. You've been listening to A Shame to Admit with me, Dash Lawrence.

Speaker 1 41:43

And me Tammy Sussman.

Speaker 2 41:45

This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King, with theme music by Donovan Jenks.

Speaker 1 41:52

If you like the podcast, forward it to a mate. Tell them it's even more satisfying than a free airport transfer.

Speaker 2 42:00

As always, thanks for your support and look out for us next week and, tammy, I'll see you at Tullamarine. Bye-bye, thank you.