Ashamed to Admit
Are you ashamed to admit you're not across the big issues and events affecting Jews in Australia, Israel and around the Jewish world?
In this new podcast from online publication The Jewish Independent, Your Third Cousin Tami Sussman and TJI's Dashiel Lawrence tackle the week's 'Chewiest and Jewiest' topics.
Ashamed to Admit
Are We Raising Joyous (Jewish) Children? Two Melbourne Educators Think We Can Do Better
What happens when two passionate Jewish educators decide to reimagine what a Jewish day school could be? Adam Hyman and Eleanor Hasenfratz are bringing a radical new vision to Melbourne's Jewish community with Beit Hillel Community School, set to open in 2026. They caught up with Tami and Dash (both parents of kids in prep) to discuss their vision and why they think Melbourne's Jewish community is ready for this unique model of education.
Article related to this conversation:
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/an-alternative-jewish-school-for-melbourne
More information about the school:
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Did you graduate from Jewish school over a decade ago but still have vivid memories of a teacher telling you that you should be ashamed of yourself for misbehaving in class?
Speaker 2:Or are you just interested in Jewish day schools, how they're created from conception to grand opening day schools, how they're created from conception to grand opening.
Speaker 1:If you answered yes to one or more of those questions, then you've come to the right place.
Speaker 2:I'm Dash Lawrence from the Jewish Independent and in today's episode, your third cousin, Tammy Sussman, and I will be talking to two Jewish educators from Melbourne, Australia, who are reimagining what Jewish schooling can look like, blending alternative education with deep cultural connection, through their bold new project, Beit Hillel Community School.
Speaker 1:Who knows if they'll be ashamed to admit anything. It's season three of this Jewish Independent podcast and we seem to be dropping our shame.
Speaker 2:Some of us more than others, Tammy.
Speaker 1:Come along for the ride, as we have a go at cutting through some seriously chewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 2:Welcome to this week's episode of A Shame to Admit. Welcome back, I'm Dash Lawrence, executive Director here at the Jewish Independent and, as of last month, secretary of Hamble Victoria. Tammy, did you slot that in at the last minute?
Speaker 1:I am the person who inserted that tidbit into today's script Tammy Sussman. Person who inserted that tidbit into today's script, tammy Sussman. I'm also the person who needs to know why a primary school playground game needs its own governing body.
Speaker 2:Okay, European handball Tammy. It's different to the type of handball you're thinking of, the type of handball that's also known as four square. I think that's what you're thinking of, the type of handball that's also known as four square. I think that's what you're thinking of.
Speaker 1:That is where there's king, queen jack dunce.
Speaker 2:Dunce, yes, the game where the ball is hit against the wall with the hand commonly played in Australia, new Zealand and other primary schools in anglophonic countries. Yeah, so European handball is a completely different game, tammy, okay.
Speaker 1:Is that what they play in primary schools in Europe?
Speaker 2:Probably more likely to. Yeah, it's actually an Olympic sport, Tammy.
Speaker 1:Is it a game that you double in yourself?
Speaker 2:Look, I have played a little bit of handball the European handball from time to time, but no, it's not a game that I've played much of.
Speaker 1:Okay, so then, why are you secretary of handball Victoria? Like what and why and how?
Speaker 2:Look, the game is on an upward trajectory.
Speaker 1:Tammy, I'm not interested in the game I'm interested in, like why is there a governing body and why are you the secretary?
Speaker 2:Australia is going to be fielding a team at the 2032 Olympic Games in Brisbane. It'll be the first time that Australia will have done that since we last did it at the Sydney Games in 2000. And it's an exciting moment. I was excited about the prospect of supporting the growth of European handball in Victoria.
Speaker 1:So you reached out to them and said do you need a secretary, or did they poach you Did? They just happen to be listeners of this show and they thought you know who'd be a really great secretary, so they called you. Is that what happened?
Speaker 2:Something like that. You mentioned school earlier, and I think that's really the nub of today's conversation, isn't it? Because this week, as you foreshadowed at the front of our episode, we are talking all about Jewish education and a radical, bold, courageous initiative that is about to be launched next year, beit Hillel Community School.
Speaker 1:That is a beautiful deflection from your own nerdiness and a beautiful segue into today's episode Shkoyach Dash. You're absolutely right, because today our listeners will be hearing our interview with Adam Hyman and Eleanor Hasenfratz, two Melbourne-based Jewish educators and co-founders of Beit Hillel Community School.
Speaker 2:Drawing on their diverse experience in both mainstream and Jewish education. Drawing on their diverse experience in both mainstream and Jewish education, adam and Eleanor have decided to create a pedagogy-first model that blends academic rigor with creativity, nature and inclusive Jewish life.
Speaker 1:Now, if you don't know what the word pedagogy means, don't be ashamed. I also don't know Dash. Can you enlighten me? Because the words used a lot throughout the interview, around six times, and I smiled and I nodded every time it was said and I do not know what it means. I thought it had something to do with dinosaurs. That's paleontology.
Speaker 2:It's like the principles or the theory that underpins the approach to teaching and education.
Speaker 1:It's very different to paleontology, which I've now confirmed. That relates to the scientific study of the history of life on Earth through the examination of plant and animal fossils.
Speaker 2:Adam and Eleanor, welcome to A Shame to Admit.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Thank you for having us.
Speaker 2:Now you guys are building a school not around a motto or a mission statement, but a question, an intriguing question at that. The question is are we raising joyous, wise and courageous children? Firstly, why the question? And do you have an answer to your own question?
Speaker 4:I think it's really important that when we prompt people to think about parenting, education and how we raise young people, we do that with a prompt, not just a hook of some sort, because really it starts with self-reflection. It starts with what are the things that we ourselves value in our own lives? And the prompt is how do we inculcate that in young children? And I think those three virtues of wisdom, courage and joy are really the, for me, the prime virtues in how we face the world.
Speaker 4:Life is challenging and we need courage to address those challenges, to find our own strength and our strength in community. But also, life is wonderful and it's joyous and we need optimism and we need a stature, a posture towards the world that is good, that we can be good, that we can do good and that we can find the humour and just the joy and optimism in everything. And schools are like education, and education is the bedrock of what and education is the bedrock of what schools are about and the bedrock of parenting. But one step above education and knowledge is wisdom, and we need to recognise that knowledge is really only as good as when it gets us to the point of wisdom. So I guess that's why I was really drawn to those three virtues and it gets us to the point of wisdom.
Speaker 3:So I guess that's why I was really drawn to those three virtues. They make sense to me and it's funny every time we sit down together I sort of glean you know different things from having this conversation that education and the Jewish community are a match made in heaven. It's everyone's favorite pastime to talk about our schools and they are amazing, amazing schools. And I think as soon as you hit a certain age, or if you have children like basically from when they're in utero you start thinking about which school are they going to and what can we afford and what about this? And he went to Scopus, but I went here and I don't know and I'm not sure. And the buses, and it's just.
Speaker 3:You know there's a, and I'm sure in Sydney as well, there's a whole long, glorious conversation that you have at parks and simchas and family shoves, dinners, about which school and what kind of school, and all of those schools have amazing benefits and some of them have drawbacks, depending on who you are and what you want out of the school.
Speaker 3:But they all currently exist and therefore they have those pros and cons. And so we're in this kind of amazing position of we're going to start one from the very beginning. I heard another amazing educator, john Marsden, who was an author and founded a school with a similar philosophy, say you know, after many decades of teaching, I saw terrible things and wonderful things, and I thought what if I take all the wonderful things and leave out all the terrible things, maybe that will lead to a really good school? And his school is really good. And so I think we're coming from a similar kind of position, except we're doing it within the Jewish community, where you know, our schools are what's the phrase that we tend to use? The shining jewels of our community. I think that's a phrase people use, and they really are, and there's some amazing things about them, but we want to do something different that doesn't currently exist in our Jewish community.
Speaker 1:And so we're thinking from really the ground up. What are the values we want to instill? When I heard the name of your school, I was thinking what a lost opportunity to not name a school after a female. We have all these kings, king David, we have these mountains why not Queen Esther School? Tell us about the process you went through in choosing the name Beit Hillel, because for those of our listeners who might not know the reference, hillel was a pretty important person. And what does that choice say about the kind of Jewish education that you're trying to create?
Speaker 4:I always felt like schools should have names that mean something to the students. Tell me, like you, I went to Mount Sinai College in Sydney and I love the name Mount Sinai, and our school song really reflected the values behind that name. Not only was it a place of the giving of the Torah, but also there's that gorgeous midrash where all the different mountains are calling out saying give the Torah on me, give the Torah on me. And the tallest mountain was rejected because it was arrogant. And the strongest mountain, the widest mountain, they were all rejected. But Mount Sinai was a small mountain and it was its humility that inculcated the values of what having the Torah on it, given on it, is about, and that always meant something to me that a mountain and it wasn't a valley, it was a mountain and nonetheless had stature, but it was a humble mountain. As a child, that always meant something to me and I still clearly carry that lesson within me today.
Speaker 4:So I really wanted to make sure that our school had a name that meant something to the students, and when I thought about what sort of teachings we have in our tradition that are both rich and deep but also very accessible, I kept landing on all the teachings and all the stories about Hillel the Elder, hillel Hazaken, and there's three or four that kind of jump out at me that are all about peace and fraternity and patience and wisdom. I'm thinking first of all of the story where the convert comes to Hillel after being rejected by other rabbis. He comes to Hillel and he says can you teach me the whole of Torah? While I stand on one foot and Hillel says to him sure, all of Torah is don't do to others what is hateful to yourself. That's the whole of Torah. Everything else is a teaching, a commentary on that. Now, come inside and learn, and it's about patience, it's about acceptance, it's about compassion, it's about tolerance, but it's also about now, come and join us, be part of the community and keep learning further.
Speaker 1:So, Eleanor, did you put forward the Queen Esther School?
Speaker 3:Yeah well, I'm ashamed to admit that I did not put forward the name of Queen Esther, but perhaps that might be in your future, Tammy, that you're going to start a school, maybe like a martial arts school for Jewish girls, called the Queen Esther Academy of Jiu-Jitsu or something like that. That would be so great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it would be Krav Maga.
Speaker 3:It would be Krav Maga. You know it would be multidisciplinary, I think.
Speaker 4:But it would have been a perfect name because Queen Esther is that character and I think she's probably the strongest example of it in Tanakh, who really finds her courage. For the first half of Megillat Esther she's a totally passive character and you have almost the exact middle. Pasuk is when she has that total turnaround and realises if she doesn't speak up nothing's going to happen. And when she goes to a chashverosh it's the first time she actually speaks in the whole Megillat and her whole character turns around in a moment. So it's a gorgeous name I highly recommend it.
Speaker 1:I get paid to consult on projects like this. So I've just we're having a rebrand and you just got that for free. I think that's what's happening now.
Speaker 2:Okay, let's dig a little bit more into the philosophy of Bait Halal and what you're proposing to establish. So you have described the philosophy as both old school and new and out of the box, and you're promoting rigorous back-to-basics literacy and numeracy, alongside lots of outdoor and nature play. Tell us about how it's possible to reconcile what appears to be two kind of competing educational principles, of both being old school and traditional approach to the fundamentals of pedagogy and also, I guess, a more flexible notion of education for children.
Speaker 3:We have kept that deliberately confusing to prompt people to ask more questions. It's like a little mini Pesach Seder that we're running by.
Speaker 3:being slightly strange, people are like hang on a minute what and we're like, we're so glad you asked, let me tell you about it. So I think a good way to start is by telling you a little bit more about what day-to-day life actually looks like or will look like at Bayt Hill, and also sharing that there are some schools that exist on the same kind of framework that we've been inspired by. So it's not just Adam and Eleanor, you know, sitting in a living room one show this afternoon being like what's the weirdest thing we can think of doing. I know, let's start a school, let's make some stuff up right now. So these things do currently exist, and in schools that receive very, very high results, kind of academically speaking and also in terms of the children and students that they produce is kind of the wrong word, but the students and children who go there do tend to be, you know, competent, well-rounded, confident in the world, knowing themselves and how to learn, which we think is really admirable. So I'll tell you a little bit more about what the day-to-day looks like and some of the key differences between Bay Hillel and a mainstream school setting, which is what we have all experienced. I presume One of the main differences is there's a really big focus on mixed age groups so that sometimes in a normal school you might have like a buddies program where the preps and the year sixes might hang out once a week and do like a coloring activity together or like sometimes that's done really well and those kids have a genuine connection.
Speaker 3:Vast majority of the time that's usually a reasonably tokenistic thing to do. Maybe only happens in term one and two and those kids don't become really friends. They don't really have a strong connection and, speaking from experience as a grade six or prep teacher, it's usually the first lesson to get ditched If the grade sixes are behind in their persuasive texts or there are nits in the prep classroom or something the teachers will be like let's not do that this week, let's come back to it, and so it isn't really prioritised. Those relationships aren't prioritised and kids are generally in their year level age groupings and that is who they are friends with and that's what they hang out with and that's what they learn with, who they are friends with and that's what they hang out with and that's what they learn with. So at Beit Hillel we're kind of busting that wide open, which is that two days a week kids will be in mixed age groups. At other schools they call them tribes.
Speaker 3:Adam and I both actually teaching at a school which uses this model, and when I'm teaching art and drama I will have tribes come into my classroom, which means it'll be the wombats first and there are about 10 kids in that year level in that group and it'll be like two preps, two grade ones, one grade two, a couple of grade threes, two grade fours, you know, so on and so forth, so there'll be a full mixing and those kids are together in that group two days a week in all of their classes. Usually they'll be in their own age group for maths and English, but for art and science and drama and for us Jewish studies and tefillah and outdoor time and sport and all these kinds of non-core learning, you know, reading, writing, arithmetic, that sort of thing. They're in mixed age groups.
Speaker 3:And I have been just to take a tiny step back and tell you about how I got involved in this project. So Adam has been wanting to do this for 10 years. He visited a school like this for his teaching rounds and he was like, oh my God, this doesn't exist in the Jewish community and this needs to exist and this is fundamentally different to what's on offer and he's been talking to me about it for about six years and I'll be like that's nice, dear, that sounds good for you, go forth and work on your project. And for about three years he's been asking me to be involved and I have wanted to support him as a fellow educator. I think it's really admirable, but I've basically been like that sounds really hard, I don't want to get involved in that. And then at the start of this year I happened to start working at the same school as Adam, without him even realising the school we work at is called Fitzroy Community School.
Speaker 4:The school we work at is called Fitzroy Community School and it's where I did my teaching rounds when I was studying, and I've gone back and worked there a few times since. Sort of by coincidence, we're both working there together at the moment.
Speaker 3:Also the school that inspired John Marsden to start his school, and a few other schools have started, based on working at Fitzroy. So within about two weeks of me working at Fitzroy I was like, okay, I get it, I'm in, I'm all in, let's do this. So one of the things that really changed my mind was this mixed age group. So at first I was like I'm a mainstream primary school teacher. I was like how is this going to work? How am I meant to teach a class for kids who are five and 12 at the same time? I can't possibly understand how that's going to work. And yet it does incredibly well and the benefit that you get from that is incredibly high behavioral norms and incredibly high levels of just inherent leadership and care and understanding that kids can be friends outside of their calendar year age grouping and they actually gain a lot from that. So I think in my first day I was noticing what was it like? A grade four boy, without anyone needing to ask him to do anything, noticed that a prep had his shoelaces undone and went and tied his shoelaces for him and honestly, like it's a sad state that that is so mind-blowing to me. But it was mind-blowing to me and I think any teachers listening would be like, yeah, that's weird, like you don't often see that in other schools, and so that was incredible Watching kids at lunchtimes. We all eat together every day. The school provides all of the food and the kids line up and get their food and they make sure that their tinies you know their sort of preps, who they're looking after have had food as well, and then everyone just kind of hangs out and sits down to eat together in a non kind of formal setting. There's a big table where the teachers sit and sometimes kids will be doing origami or doing the quiz with us and hanging out. And I remember looking out the window and seeing a prep, a grade two and a grade six genuinely sitting down and eating lunch together and, I think, playing some really complicated card game or something, and I was like what is happening? I don't understand, you would not see this. You just would not say this at another school. So the mixed age is really bringing this idea of that. The school is an extension of the family home and that is made possible by the size of the school. So this is not going to. We have no plans for world domination. This school is going to be 50, maybe 60 kids, so approximately 10-ish per year level, and that makes those friendships and relationships possible.
Speaker 3:So another thing I saw in my first week was there was a year level that I was teaching for maths and there were, I think, grade twos and there were two girls and seven or eight boys, and very rambunctious boys as well. And I asked the girls, I said, how is it for you being the only girls in this class? They as well. And I asked the girls I said, how is it for you being the only girls in this class? They're like, yeah, it's fine, because we also are in tribes half the week and it's just not a problem. So they actually have the social capacity is the entire school. Then no one is kind of trapped. And I know that that can be a concern in other schools where it particularly if it's a small class that's your friendship group and if you don't succeed in that friendship group you're going to have a pretty terrible year. And I know even you know from schools in our community being a small school can be challenging. But I think the fact that they really enhance mixed age group friendships and learning together just makes a lot of things possible. So that's one primary difference.
Speaker 3:Another primary difference about this school is that there is a particular teacher for every single subject, sort of like in a high school. For maths, you go to the maths teacher in the maths room. For English, you go to the English teacher in the English room, so on and so forth, and the kids move around the school by themselves. Every day They'll go through the kitchen to just check the timetable and then they'll all call out tinies, have English, and they'll, all you know, toddle off to the English room.
Speaker 3:As opposed to in a mainstream school where if I had a specialist teacher for art perhaps I would need to walk my kids in a blob or two straight lines whatever I could achieve and walk them in and kind of hand them over, and there was a very high level of supervision and a very low level of trust. I would never send my grade threes off to walk to the art room by themselves, whereas at the school we're teaching at, that's just very possible to do. No one is going to get lost and no one's really going to get out to mischief because everyone is generally on track as well. So it also means and I'm sure you've been through this experience, or you worry about it for your own children, that if you're starting grade one and you don't like the grade one teacher or your child doesn't like the grade one teacher one and you don't like the grade one teacher, or your child doesn't like the grade one teacher, or God forbid, you get the sense the teacher doesn't like your child, which can happen.
Speaker 3:I mean, and you know, teachers are wonderful, but it's very intense to be with one adult for every single subject for an entire year and it can be hit or miss and that can lead to wonderful deep connections and friendships and love for that teacher and then be hard to leave them, or it can be really hard for an entire year to be with a personality that you just clash with. What I think is really beautiful about this model is that the kids at the school we're working at at Fitzroy have a really strong connection with maybe 10 different adults and it really does feel like a family. It really feels like everyone's a kind of auntie or uncle. They can call on anybody, and so those were two of the kind of key reasons that make this school model different that I was like yeah, I'm totally in. This makes complete sense to me.
Speaker 1:It sounds to me like that will be better for the teachers as well. I often think about the teachers just as an example. My daughter in the UK has quite, quite a challenging class and I think about that teacher with them for the whole year and I'm worried about her burning out. So yeah, sounds great from that perspective as well.
Speaker 4:I would mention that because usually when we talk about the school, we're talking to prospective parents and so I'm not really talking about the benefits to teachers. But really our experience of working at Fitzroy Community School is hugely beneficial to teachers for precisely the reasons you say. There's so much less burnout and because you're focused on a specific academic subject rather than the whole entire curriculum. You're much more focused, you develop more expertise in your area.
Speaker 1:Yeah, less overwhelm.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:But that also benefits the kids, because when a teacher's not burnt out, they can be more present and have more energy to give and you also can teach the subjects that you yourself are more passionate about, that you're better at teaching.
Speaker 4:There's nothing worse than having a teacher who's a wonderful English teacher but a terrible maths teacher who's not teaching maths half the day. It's not helpful for the kids. It's not helpful for the teachers.
Speaker 1:I'm getting quite excited about this school.
Speaker 2:I'm interested in the model and I know that what you are talking about in the case of Fitzroy has been very well established. Now there is a cohort, there is a community out there that wants that form of education. I'm just wondering is the Melbourne Jewish community, which has particular ideas about what education should be and particular ideas about the way that classes should be run, going to be primed and ready for what is quite a unorthodox approach to education?
Speaker 4:Really keen to address that. I want to just make sure I spell out sort of the kind of four or five ways that the school is a different model of schooling and then I want to tell you a bit more about the philosophy which I think links to your question. So the idea is that this will be a consciously and intentionally small school when schools get big. There's this concept in anthropology I forget what the name of it is, but Dunbar's number or something that communities tend to coalesce around a certain number of people. I think in the research it's about 150 people. As big as a community or a tribe gets before people stop knowing each other.
Speaker 4:I went to Mount Sinai and when I was at Mount Sinai I was the last year level to be single streamed. So after me every single year level was double streamed and then became triple streamed and it's no knock on the school at all. Schools are complicated places that have lots of different needs they have to address and they have to meet the community where it's at All of that is true. But I noticed when I was in UK I think they call it in Sydney prep in Melbourne I knew everyone at the school and I knew most of the parents at the school and by the time I got to year six, when the school had doubled in size, all of that had been lost. Frankly, a small school can really hold its culture together and can really develop a different kind of culture, in the same way that, as adults, people are drawn to different kinds of workplaces. Some people want large, you know kind of big multinational conglomerate organizations they want to work for, and some people want to work for small, boutique organizations. They bring something different to the picture.
Speaker 4:The school will provide food every day so that everyone eats and because food is more than just nourishment. It's nourishment of the soul. It's how communities connect with each other. All communities across all time connect over food. Ironically, school is the one example of a place where people don't connect over food, because kids are not allowed to share food in primary schools. And what's become the norm in primary schools? You guys may not know this, but what's become the norm in primary schools is kids sit in the classroom, take out their lunchbox, sit at their desk and eat, while the teacher very, very often puts a video on the smart board or the projector in the classroom. And I can see your face.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I can see your wide eyes there it's not a knock on teachers. It's not a knock on schools. It's the nature of the culture that has come into schools, the overwhelm on teachers and, frankly, also the very poor behavioural norms at most schools. It's really hard to manage kids in a classroom when they have quote-unquote free time.
Speaker 3:Sometimes you've just got to put on Mr Bean so that you know you can deal with the issues that have occurred in the last lesson, or you can make sure that the kids who maybe aren't getting enough food at home are actually eating their lunch, or the kids you're worried about maybe having disordered eating are eating their food Like it's a very we understand allergies the whole thing.
Speaker 3:We understand what happens, but it's become this really quite strange culture and it becomes normal. And then you have the sort of slightly addicted children who expect that all of the time and that's the way to sort of calm them down and make sure that they eat and it's just, it's weird and unnatural. But we sit down and you know they're eating in front of a screen and it's kind of sterile and again it's like a lack of trust in the kids. But it's a.
Speaker 4:It's a bigger picture than just that teacher and just that classroom so that touches on two things first of all, is everyone will eat food together every day, a provided lunch, so that it addresses the issue of control, it addresses the issues of allergies, of kids sharing food, everyone sitting to eat a meal together, and it also touches on the idea of technology.
Speaker 4:This will be an absolute minimum tech school, perhaps even a zero tech school.
Speaker 4:At the school we teach at, I teach science as well as maths, and when I want to show the kids a video in science class which is really the only time there's any tech really I whip it out on my phone and the kids huddle around and we watch a little video about, you know, marine animals or something, and it's usually a five minute clip and that's all it is.
Speaker 4:But in a small class you can really do that with kids gathering around. But we don't need all this extra iPad time. We don't need Kids run devices a lot at school and frankly, I don't know what benefit they're adding. I really don't. The only other piece perhaps is four days a week will be regular academic classes, and one day a week will be what we're calling workshop Wednesdays, which is our time to have excursions, time in nature, intergenerational community experiences, which means visiting old age homes in the community and participating in those sorts of events, bringing guest speakers and doing kind of creative arts workshops, science workshops, those sorts of things, and also just walking kids to the local playground and letting them play.
Speaker 3:And catching trams and being out in the world.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah yeah. And buying a Slurpee on the way back to school.
Speaker 4:So with all that let me kind of touch on the philosophy which I think comes back to your question, dash. So there's this idea in pedagogy studies of something called the hidden curriculum, the curriculum we're all familiar with. The curriculum sets out maths expectations, literacy expectations, what to learn in science. The hidden curriculum is this concept that in a school environment we're teaching all sorts of other things that are often not measurable and not explicitly defined what we should be doing, and that's about the school culture. It's about what sort of uniforms are kids wearing.
Speaker 4:At Bay Hill there won't be a uniform, and I think that teaches kids independence. I think it's also more affordable for families. I think it also means that if it's a muddy day and we're going and playing soccer and there's mud on the ground, you're not worried about your uniform getting dirty and you don't have this mad dash the night before school of washing and putting things in a dry. So you've got enough uniforms, like it's no big deal. The clothes you bought from an art shop will get muddy. It's fine. That hidden curriculum is also that all this group of adults around you are all there to look out for you and you know all of them. There's all these ideas that we could talk about. It could be a whole podcast in and of itself. The hidden curriculum is this concept of all the things that create a culture and learning environment, and taking the hidden curriculum seriously means building it into the school from the beginning. Your question was about an unorthodox education in the Jewish community.
Speaker 3:I think what is underneath that question is really about trust, because I think that what is something special about the Fitzroy model from a parent's perspective is that it requires a high level of trust from parents in the school to educate their children. When we think about the Jewish community, as maybe parents who are a little bit more anxious and have like a very high level of oversight into their kids' education and the way that Fitzroy kind of words that is, that it's like a temporary three-way marriage and all parties need to be on board and willing to work together and have goodwill and not be kind of looking for the holes and have a lack of trust in the school. Because as soon as you have a lack of trust in the school, lo and behold, there'll be things that we'll be unhappy with. So I think that is a particular challenge in establishing any school from scratch and in bringing on any cohort of parents. And I think in the Jewish community we'll have our own particular challenges based on what we're used to and how schools generally operate. And we do really encourage parents to come and visit Fitzroy because I think once you see it in real life you're like, oh right, it's a school. It feels radically different.
Speaker 3:Kids are not in uniform, there are kids who are not in class for some reason. What's going on there? But then you realize, oh, they're all actually saying thank you to the teacher at the end of the lesson and they're sitting down to eat together and no one's throwing anything. And kids are not generally needing lots and lots of extra support because of the environment that they're in. We care deeply about our kids' education, and I think there are a lot of people who are looking for something else and looking for something more robust and kind of simple, and I think that that's something that Bait Hillel is going to provide, and that they are looking for an environment like this where they can put their trust in the school and know that their kids are going to get the kind of non-cookie cutter approach where they can be, you know, real competent people in the world by the time they leave school, and if they get excellent accolade results along the way, that's wonderful as well. So we've had about 70-ish families come through our information sessions so far.
Speaker 1:Well, it's about to be 80 after I convince all of. I won't even need to convince my people because we're having the same conversations, but I know one of the questions they're going to ask me and that is how much does the school cost Precisely? How can you make it a public school is what I want to know.
Speaker 4:That's a really good question and something that will take a lot of lobbying to the government to change the way we fund schools in our country. The reality is that any school that wants to do something a bit different whether it's a particular cultural group, particular pedagogy, a faith-based school basically needs to run as an independent school. In Australia, independent is the same as a private school. That means it's funded differently and there's tuition to be paid. So we are very, very conscious of affordability. I know the challenge school affordability had for my parents when I was growing up and I know the pressure that put on our family and we're very, very conscious of that for parents today. The school fees will be amongst the lowest of the Jewish schools in Melbourne. It's worth having a look at the website Schedule. Fees will be up there soon and they'll be not outside the ballpark of similar schools in the area, but they will be on the lower end, and fees will also include all food, which also includes not having to make lunches of an age which I think is huge.
Speaker 2:That in and of itself has us sending our kids there for sure.
Speaker 4:But the other piece I want to add is I love the Jewish schools in Australia. I really, really have no bad thoughts about any of them and I've taught at almost all of them.
Speaker 1:All of them, every single one? Or are you being diplomatic?
Speaker 4:No, I think our schools are excellent. I really do, I really do believe that.
Speaker 3:Some of them are kooky. You know, Adam really has taught at almost all of the Jewish schools.
Speaker 4:No, no, I've taught at half the Haredi schools in Melbourne. Like, haredi schools are a different genre of school. Yes, I feel the same all over the world. They're a bit kooky. No, really, I've taught at almost all the Jewish schools in Melbourne. They are the jewel of our community. They are successful on so many levels and all the schools in our community provide a whole lot of an amazing amount of financial support for parents.
Speaker 4:The school in Melbourne that provides the least amount of financial support is still providing assistance to at least a quarter of the students, and some of the schools are providing up to 80% of families with support. So I guess what I'm saying is I don't want to lead with like come to this school because it's cheaper, I think it will be, but if you're coming to the school because it's cheaper, I don't think you're the right person for the school. If, if you're interested in beta L, come to a parent information session, start the conversation. We'll find a way to make the finances work and the starting point will be lower than the other schools. If finances are a problem, please come and talk to us. We can find a way to make it work.
Speaker 3:If it's the same every year, they won't go up. So it'll cost the same thing for prep as it will for year six.
Speaker 2:We've talked a lot about the school's broader philosophies, but we've almost not at all touched on what makes the school other than its name Jewish. So I'm curious about how you are approaching the Jewish element of the school, be it through Judaism, through the languages that the students might be learning. Tell us a little bit about the Jewish element of the school.
Speaker 4:I'm so, so glad you asked, because I was also just thinking we haven't spoken at all about the Jewish component.
Speaker 2:Oh, the food, of course, that you have every day together.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah. It's a huge part of our education, our Jewish component. In this journey I had a real insight and a real kind of wall within myself. If I really wanted to start a school, if there wasn't interest in our community, would I still one day start a non-Jewish school? And something about it at core, at heart, I'm a Jewish educator. Most of my career in teaching has been teaching Jewish studies. I taught at Scopus for five or six years as a Jewish studies teacher. That's really who I am. So, practically speaking, hebrew is a very, very core part of our education. Kids will be doing Iverit every day of academic classes, so four days a week. Very high aspirational desires for strong levels of Hebrew. I'm not a Hebrew teacher. We're going to find great Hebrew teachers. I've had lots of conversations with Hebrew teachers in the community.
Speaker 3:We can teach Hebrew, just not to the standard that we need it to be taught.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and we're going to find the right Hebrew teacher and they're going to do amazing, amazing work. So, historically, all the Jewish schools in Australia are fundamentally founded on a religious denomination or an ideology, a Jewish ideology, a Jewish denomination, and historically I think that was probably the right approach for our community. I think that's what kind of 20th century Judaism looked like. 90th century Judaism looked like you were reform or you were orthodox, or you were this kind of Zionist. You were that kind of Zionist. But I think moving forward, that's not the right approach. That's not what our world looks like anymore and I think a lot of those boundaries are blurring between the denominations and between the approaches people want for their Jewish lives. So our Jewish approach is really grounded on pedagogy and not ideology. What that means is the question we ask ourselves is what value does this lesson have for a student, for a young person, and how does it equip them to live in the Jewish world with competence, with confidence, with empowerment? Rather than asking, what sort of graduate do I want the student to be, I'm invested in making sure that they are equipped with the fluency, the competence, the confidence to feel at home wherever they find themselves in the Jewish world. That's what I'm looking for.
Speaker 4:What does that mean? It means kids need to know the basics of historical Judaism. Historical Judaism means the historical philot which are the core parts of really across the denominations. Kids need to know the basics of Jewish texts, not just the basics, the fundamentals, the foundations, the bedrock of Jewish texts, chumash, the Haggadah, basic parts of the Mahzorah. I mean it has to be at an age-appropriate level but it all has to be taught with love, with care, with enthusiasm. I want kids doing like bibliodrama plays at the parasha each week. I want kids having you know arguments about different parts of the Mishnah.
Speaker 4:We often think of Jewish learning as reading texts. Like that's like serious sort of quote unquote, for those listening home are doing air quotes, quote unquote. Jewish learning is about reading books. But the books are there to actually make life valuable and interesting and full of vivaciousness and vibrance, and developing wisdom and addressing problems and challenges in our life, and so it actually has to make the jump from the page into real life and will there be a focus on Jewish feminism, because I'm assuming that the two of you are feminists.
Speaker 1:I make that assumption based on the fact that Adam's wife is a rubber knit, and I make that assumption based on nothing other than your earrings, eleanor we were 100, correct in that when you tell the Passover story, would you tell it through the lens of Miriam and her involvement and make her a protagonist? Are you going to shake that shit up too?
Speaker 3:Yeah, we're definitely going to shake that shit up, and I'll just add to the Jewish element that, when we talk about all of the things that we want the kids to have a strong foundation in and I have my own, you know, complicated and wonderful relationship to Judaism and you can't save it I'm wearing pants right now and I have Scandalous, scandalous Judaism and I'm you can't save it.
Speaker 3:I'm wearing pants right now and I have scandalous, scandalous, and I also was born not Jewish and have lived as a progressive for a long time, and now I live a kind of modern orthodox lifestyle. I keep kosher and I keep Shabbat, but I and Adam both of us have a really strong idea that it's really we want to provide the students, and the families as well, with everything they need to make their own decision and have in and out of different practices over time.
Speaker 2:Tell us about the challenges, the practical challenges of starting a new school, like how much red tape are you having to cut through? You've been talking a lot about the types of teachers you would have, but so far, as far as I understand, there's only going to be the two of you. So how challenging is it going to be to find the teachers in time, because you want to open this thing next year, in 2026. So tell us about, perhaps, what might be keeping you up at night at the moment, about the practical implications of doing all of this in the next six months.
Speaker 3:Great question. I will say that we did not choose to do this for the fame and money. That's for sure. We did make a really great decision of us in marrying who we married 10 or 11 years ago. So Adam not only married a woman who became a rabbinate but is also a lawyer, and I married someone who is a town planner and both those turns out incredibly useful when you're trying to register a new school.
Speaker 3:so we've been working very hard on submitting our application to register a new school with the, the RA, which we've just done, and that's like an ongoing process about the evidence needed and this, that and the other and planning applications, and I think the document we submitted was like 470 pages to them on the 30th of June. So that was a big achievement already, but it just keeps going, which is glorious. For the first probably two years we're going to be at a beautiful, beautiful mid-century palace it feels to me called the Stiebel, which is now the Schuyl, which does beautiful life cycle events, and this building itself is just so gorgeous. It's in Caulfield East. It originally was built as a casino because it's right next to the race course. The Caulfiel Love it and so like velvet wallpaper and like raw silk curtains and parquetry floor and there's a bar and like we will make it into a school. It's great. But again, because it's such a small place, a small school, we actually don't need to build big empty grey classrooms. It actually is perfect that there's a little library that can sit 10 kids, like amazing, that's where we're going to do our English lessons and that there are two you know classrooms Amazing, that's our maths and science room.
Speaker 3:So that works beautifully and that's been a really gorgeous process of getting to know lots of different places in the community and talking to lots of shuls from lots of different denominations who wanted us to hold our school there.
Speaker 3:They wanted of shuls from lots of different denominations who wanted us to hold our school there. They wanted to be our premises, especially for the first few years, which was absolutely glorious. So working on that process is definitely another big part of it and we've really enjoyed. We've had a lot of teachers reach out to us and we haven't even listed any job ads or anything like that. So that's been wonderful and that would be the next part of our process. But, again, because we're only opening with 20 students and not seeking 60 enrollments in the first year, if it were up to us we would start with 10, but the vrqa requires us to have 20 we'll open prep to grade 3 and so, yeah, we're looking at 20 kids, which means really there'll only be like two lessons happening at once, so you can actually manage it with two or three part-time staff, which is wonderful what else?
Speaker 3:would you add about what's needed to start a school?
Speaker 4:there are so many challenges and I'm really grateful to the people that help us along the way. We found a new school consultant who's really guide us through the process. But I guess I've learned through this process of starting a school that if you get bogged down in all the challenges it makes it really hard to start, and I've I've really learned to just take things one piece at a time and not try to answer everything all at once.
Speaker 3:Take things one piece at a time, Just watching Adam and all of what he's been managing and thinking about and just how intense and, you know, laborious the process is to start a school. It really is a case of intutsu enzo agata, Like he has to keep willing it in order to make it not a dream, and he actually received some advice from John Marsden, who passed away last year. Sadly, Adam's got it printed out in his kitchen and it basically just says just start the bloody thing. Like in 10 years it'll be even harder. So just start. So I feel grateful for all of the thinking and preparation that's gone into it and I just, I so believe in what this type of school can offer and I so can see that there's a hunger for it in the community and it doesn't need to be, I'm sure, growing up in, certainly in progressive schools.
Speaker 3:This is a big story that I heard many times the story of someone walking along the beach and there's millions of starfish washed up on the beach and they're throwing individual starfish back into the water and someone walks up to this woman who's throwing the starfish back in and they're like you're never going to get all of the starfish, Like why are you wasting your time, it's never going to make a difference. And she picks up a starfish, throws it in and she says it's going to make a difference to that starfish. We're not planning on world domination, we're not going to have a multi-layer high school thing, but it is going to make a difference to the 50 or so kids that come through our doors and that is really powerful and we've seen what a difference it can make and that's worth all of the late nights and all of the documentation and all the things like that's just detail. We know what we're doing and it's for the right reasons, so we're happy to do the work.
Speaker 2:Wow, thank you so much for chatting with us today.
Speaker 1:Thank you, guys, best of luck throwing your starfish into the ocean. I'm so excited to interview you in a year or two years time to have a check-in, see how you're going.
Speaker 3:Amazing, you can come for the opening of the queen esther wing of the new building.
Speaker 1:I'll be there, amazing thanks, thanks guys, amazing, you can come for the opening of the Queen Esther wing of the new building.
Speaker 3:I'll be there. Amazing Thanks guys.
Speaker 2:Thanks, guys. That was our interview with Adam Hyman and Eleanor Hasenfratz from Batehillow Community School in Melbourne, australia, and that's it for this week. You've been listening to A Shame to Admit with me, dash Lawrence week You've been listening to.
Speaker 1:A Shame to Admit, with me Dash Lawrence and me Tammy Sussman, future CEO of Esther Academy School of Krav Maga and Mixed Martial Arts.
Speaker 2:This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King, with theme music by Donovan Jenks.
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