Ashamed to Admit
Are you ashamed to admit you're not across the big issues and events affecting Jews in Australia, Israel and around the Jewish world?
In this new podcast from online publication The Jewish Independent, Your Third Cousin Tami Sussman and TJI's Dashiel Lawrence tackle the week's 'Chewiest and Jewiest' topics.
Ashamed to Admit
Dear Diary: Alexis Fishman's Theatrical Journey
Tami and Dash sit down with the incomparable Alexis Fishman: one of Australia’s most dynamic Jewish performers.
Ahead of her upcoming performance in Anne Being Frank (presented by Monstrous Theatre, Neil Gooding Productions and The Shalom Collective) Alexis talks about the politics of Jewish representation on stage and what it really takes to sustain a creative career across Australia and New York.
The interview is candid, cheeky and full of some great "Ashamed to Admits"
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/alexiss-musical-journey-new-york-amy-beyond
Buy tickets to Anne Being Frank here:
https://www.sydneyoperahouse.com/theatre/anne-being-frank
Did you know Tami and Alexis are different people?
Tami: https://www.instagram.com/tami_sussman_bits/?hl=en
Alexis: https://www.instagram.com/alexis_fishman/?hl=en
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I'm told that the Sydney Opera House has had to field through some pretty hardcore shit commentary on their social media pages because of the very fact that they are putting on a play about a Jewish person.
Speaker 2:It's sadly not surprising. It doesn't make it any less horrifying. You know, I've read many of those comments. There's Holocaust denial, there's accusations of Zionist conspiracy, propaganda stuff. There's all of these comments about bad timing. Bad timing, tone deaf. How does the Opera House think they can put this on now? I think they can put this on now.
Speaker 1:Are you interested in what it's like to play one of the most famous Jewish historical figures in Sydney's most iconic theatre venue?
Speaker 3:In today's episode, we'll be speaking to actor, singer, writer, producer and educator Alexis Fishman, who's in Australia ahead of her performance in the play Anne being Frank by Ron Elisha.
Speaker 1:Who knows if she'll be ashamed to admit anything. It's season three of this Jewish Independent podcast and we seem to be dropping our shame. Some of us, more than others, come along for the ride as we have a go at cutting through some seriously chewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 3:Welcome to this week's episode of A Shame to Admit. Hello everyone, I'm Dashiel Lawrence from the Jewish Independent.
Speaker 1:And I'm not Alexis Fishman, I'm Tammy Sussman Dash. You know what's funny? Two episodes ago we were talking about how two people told me that I looked like Amy Winehouse. They said she was my celebrity doppelganger and you said no, that's Alexis Fishman's doppelganger.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then last week, while you were in Bali getting barley belly, I got a phone call from someone in a Jewish organisation asking me to do stuff for them. It happens all the time and she said oh my God, I'm starstruck, I can't believe I'm talking to you. Tammy Sussman, the famous Jew Can't wait to see you in Anne being Frank at the Sydney Opera House.
Speaker 3:Oh no, oh God, she was confused, wasn't she? She?
Speaker 1:was, and I did have to clarify that. No. No, that is not me.
Speaker 3:Alexis, did she think that you were Alexis?
Speaker 1:Yes, she thought I was Alexis.
Speaker 3:Okay. She was getting very confused.
Speaker 1:She was. I said that is the even more famous Australian Jew, Alexis Fishman. Also, what I didn't mention to you is that when the Jewish organisation called the Shalom Collective did their campaign, where they jumped on the AI trend, they made a Tammy Sussman doll. But what AI churned out was a doll that looked nothing like me. It looked like Alexis Fisherman and Sarah Silverman's love child.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. So clearly, all roads this week are leading to Alexis Fisherman. Not only are you sometimes confused with each other, but you actually went to the same school. We did so a lot to unpack this week. Obviously, we had Alexis on to talk about this terrific new production that is heading to Sydney on at the Sydney Opera House. You'll learn more about that, but you'll also hear about Alexis's now very long career on the stage on Broadway. She's done musicals, she's played Amy Winehouse. She's put on her own productions.
Speaker 1:Is she a triple threat? Yeah, she's a musical theatre performer. She can sing, she can act, she can dance. She's amazing.
Speaker 3:We're very lucky to have one of our own, sydney-born, alexis Fishman, back in the country.
Speaker 1:And you are very lucky to be spending your next drive, dog-walking, sesh or kitchen clean-up with Alexis Fishman.
Speaker 3:Sydney-born performer and creator of six acclaimed solo cabaret shows, with credits spanning major Australian musicals, off-broadway and international festivals. Most recently, alexis has been channeling Amy Winehouse in her hit show Amy Winehouse Resurrected. She splits her time between New York and Sydney, balancing stage work with coaching, writing and the occasional performance for troops abroad. So enjoy this wide-ranging conversation with Alexis Fishman.
Speaker 1:Alexis Fishman, the one and only. Welcome to the Ashamed to Admit studio.
Speaker 2:I'm so happy to be here and I love the name of the podcast Ashamed to Admit. What are we all ashamed of?
Speaker 1:It's wonderful to take some time to think about the way that religion has made us all slightly unhinged. Not just religion you know genetics, that's true, which there is in the Venn diagram. There might be a little bit of overlap between the religion, ethnicity, culture. Unhinged shame will get there, but first we need to start at the beginning. Dash, I'm usurping your role as historian on the show.
Speaker 3:I'm happy to hand it over for just this week alone, Tammy.
Speaker 1:Okay, because he's getting over some barley belly, alexis. So, alexis, you did grow up in Sydney. You did attend Mariah College.
Speaker 2:Hashtag Mariah proud hashtag.
Speaker 1:Mariah proud is that where the seeds of your talent, your creativity and your desire to be on stage were planted?
Speaker 2:yes, and I do.
Speaker 2:I say this very proudly and when people ask me this question, I really do credit Mariah with a lot of my performing arts, pretty much all of my performing arts education I mean I had.
Speaker 2:You know, as a younger child I was like I went to like a performing arts school called Keen Kids, you know, and it was like really quite an intense, like stage mum sort of place. But then once I hit Mariah High School, I just didn't have the time to do anything else almost because everything was going on at school and it was just it was incredible. I mean I I still marvel at the you know the fact that like an orthodox jewish day school can have such a robust performing arts life, and I assume it's still the same now, but certainly when we were there, tam, like it was incredible. I mean music festivals, drama festivals, tons of school bands, the vocal group, the dance group, there was shakespeare festival, like just it was kind of it was really amazing. I didn't need to do anything else, I just had to go to Mariah to get my performing arts education, which I, you know, I feel very grateful for and very proud of.
Speaker 1:Yeah, whatever energy they weren't putting into the sports program was going into.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've not heard all of those famous Mariah alumni that have made it big in sports. I don't hear them credit Mariah with that. No, yeah, you're right.
Speaker 1:It's despite going to Mariah, not because of going to Mariah. And then after school you got into a prestigious performing arts school. We call it WAPA, but we have international listeners so it stands for Western Australian Academy of Performing Arts. That's right. So you lived in Perth in Western Australia for three years.
Speaker 3:I did. How did the family cope, Alexis, with you leaving the cradle?
Speaker 2:Family have been continually nauseatingly supportive. They've never said don't do that, that's stupid. They've always been very supportive. So yeah, they were very supportive. I mean, look, it is, and was a very prestigious place, so they were thrilled and I was thrilled and shocked, frankly.
Speaker 3:Alexis, there are many talented actors, singers, performers that find themselves getting into performing arts schools, being trained by some of the country's very best teachers, and yet still finding it incredibly difficult to then break in and make a life and a living from it as well. What was it about you and your early career that made it possible? Is it? You've been a bloody hard worker from the very start. Obviously, you've got talent, which we're going to talk about, but, as we know, talent isn't just enough.
Speaker 2:Yeah Dash, that's a great question that no one has ever asked me. You know, it's a few things. Firstly, I was lucky enough and I didn't quite realise it at the time, but I had a massive break out of drama school quite soon after graduation, even though it felt like I'd spent longer than anybody in my graduating class, sort of auditioning. But at the end of that first year after graduation I booked a principal role in Dusty the musical, which was a long time ago now but really kind of catapulted me into a leading lady status amongst the Australian musical theatre scene, which was like not anything that I had ever expected or imagined or even hoped for.
Speaker 2:I just thought I just wanted to be cast in a musical, professional musical, and play like the second giraffe on the left, like I didn't, you know, I didn't expect it and I wasn't, you know, planning on that. So I was very, very lucky and there was a number of different things within that that made it not just, it just was a very successful show. The show was very well received, the role was very well received, it was a really lucky break. So that was the first thing. But I will say that I think that I don't see myself ever being able to, either in the future or like, if I think about myself as a grad, like a new graduate, like I'm just an, I'm an artist, like I'm that's who I am and what I do. And there is, there wouldn't have been anything. I don't think that you know. I guess what I'm saying is that had I not gotten that big break, I think I would have still stayed in the industry in whatever way that that would have happened for me.
Speaker 1:Alexis. Had we asked your mother the same question why was Alexis so successful so early? What would she say?
Speaker 2:I think she probably would have said pretty much what I said, because we're almost the same person.
Speaker 1:No, she would have said because you're special, you're special.
Speaker 2:She wouldn't. I will have to ask her. She's in the other room, maybe she'll come out. No, she wouldn't have. I'm not, I'm really not. I do an Amy Winehouse show, as you may know, right, and I maintain that Amy Winehouse was special.
Speaker 3:Once in a generation gift.
Speaker 2:I am a performer, so I guess I'm better at singing and acting than the person that just walked down the street outside. But like, yeah, okay, because that's who I am and what I do. But like in terms of like really special. Like I'm not, I'm a good actor and a good singer, but like someone like Amy Winehouse is special, like I think that really is one. I can't name very many artists that I think are really special like her.
Speaker 3:We actually wanted to ask you about that Amy Winehouse character Perhaps talk us through how you approach roles like this, because I expect it could potentially be a bit of a poison chalice in some ways, because people have very particular ideas or expectations of how that person should sing and look and be and have it in the world.
Speaker 2:You know it's funny. I'm just remembering this now. I have not thought about this in a very, very long time. I'd always been compared to Amy Winehouse. People had always said to me you look like Amy Winehouse. And this is years ago, and I had not Amy Winehouse and Sarah Silverman, of course, but I had. You know, I tend to be a late adopter, like people can talk about things for years and I don't get hold of it until you know, years, years later. And that happened with Amy Winehouse.
Speaker 2:I'd, obviously, I'd heard of her, I knew who she was, but I only got interested in her music after she died. And at some point after she died I had this idea. I was like, you know what I should do? An Amy Winehouse show, because I love the music. And people say I look like her.
Speaker 2:But initially I remember saying, oh, I'm not going to play her because I couldn't play her, no way. And I remember my husband actually said to me and, as I said, I've just thought about this for the first five years he's like, well, if you're going to do an Amy Winehouse show, you've got to play her. I mean, I was terrified because, firstly, to pretend, to imitate and to impersonate somebody else. It's really hard, but also there's a sense of what's the word for arrogance is too strong a word, but there's like. So I think I'm good enough to be Amy Winehouse. I was nervous about that and also I have such a huge amount of respect for her. I was really in awe of her and had great respect for her artistry. So, yeah, it was terrifying and actually I called my dear friend Tamsin Carroll.
Speaker 3:What advice did she give you about playing a big historic character?
Speaker 2:The advice that I got was that you know, you don't have to do it all right, like if you just take and this was the advice that my vocal coach, who I work with, extensively said the same thing that if you just take, you know, just choose three things. That Amy does. That is iconically Amy. You don't have to do everything. You can't be anybody other than yourself, but what you can do is just layer on a few pieces of whether it's vocal or physical or whatever. You know, you just layer on a few things and the audience goes along with it. Right, because that's what audiences want to do, so it works.
Speaker 1:Capture her essence, but don't go full method and don't start doing drugs.
Speaker 2:No, and I am such a like scaredy cat when it comes to drugs and alcohol, but you know. So, yeah, that was not going to. I was never going to be.
Speaker 3:You were never going to end up in rehab. You have played it here in Australia, internationally, in the US and the UK, and I know that the Winehouse family were very supportive of your show and really embraced you and your performance of Amy. Was it that role that kind of took your confidence as a performer to a new level, because it carried a lot of pressure to be playing her? Just wondering how it may have changed you as a performer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think that I would specifically attribute that particular show as sort of shifting anything for me, Although I will say that you know, it's been more than 10 years now that I've been doing solo shows and also I'm a woman of a certain age and I think that once we become women of a certain age, we just get a little bit more confident. So I think, firstly, I've done a lot of this stuff now, so I now just feel confident and positive in myself and I'm also learning to like let go of, you know, those silly expectations that you have when you're younger about how you should be and what it is to be a performer, to be an actor, to be an artist, all of this stuff at least for me, but I would think it was true for many, many, many people. You really feel like there's a sort of conformity. You sort of have to kind of be a particular sort of artist that behaves in a particular way, that feels particular things about. You know, yeah, you have to tick certain boxes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you sort of like. I remember thinking to myself oh, but I don't have like hang-ups, I'm not, I'm just like a nice Jewish girl from Sydney, like how can I be an actor, I don't have any issues, sort of thing. Right. You know, like that kind of stereotype of actors have to be fucked up or actors have to be like you know tortured.
Speaker 2:You can cut this out if it's inappropriate, but I was a virgin for the first couple of years of drama school. At the end of second year, I was like I need to have sex. This is ridiculous, right? So even that was like this, and so I did. I was like I just-.
Speaker 1:You made it your mission.
Speaker 2:I lost my virginity I did I like go back to third year virgin, but even that is like this thing that you think that you need to be to fit in, Like you sort of just let all that go at this point. So like yeah, I don't think it was specifically Amy, but it was like just getting older and then also just looking back and going I've got experience in this now Like I trust myself.
Speaker 1:You write your own cabaret shows and I remember seeing you at the Seymour Centre in Sydney years ago. I don't remember the name of the show, but I do remember one of your songs. It lives rent free in my head. What? Is it. Blame the Jews, blame the.
Speaker 2:Jews. What one was that? Yeah, that's well. I mean, it's Carmen. The music is from Carmen, yes, but it's Friedrich Hollander's lyrics on that very famous aria.
Speaker 4:If it's raining, if it's sunny, if you're freezing or dripping sweat, if there's thunder, if there's lightning, if you're dry or soaking wet, if it's humid, if it's pleasant, if it's still or if there's a breeze if you're coughing or you're wheezing, if you snort or if you sneeze, go blame the Jews.
Speaker 1:Go blame the Jews. I love that you still think about that, tammy. Yeah, it lives rent-free in my head. I'm wondering if there are characters or songs that live rent-free in yours. And the second part of that question is is there a higher chance of that happening if it's a Jewish theme?
Speaker 2:The thing that lives rent-free in my head. It's just whatever I'm currently working on, probably. So no, I don't think there's anything that lives with me outside of that. But yeah, my work has been very Jewish, very Jewish On purpose, Not on purpose, no, maybe a little bit more so kind of in the recent years. Not initially, but it's been that way and I think it's becoming more and more kind of. It's not all I want to do, but I do feel very connected, obviously, to those stories, that identity, that part of me and, as our sister Sarah Silverman would say, at least they are casting someone who is Jewish in a Jewish story.
Speaker 2:Well, these days, you know, you can only play what you are.
Speaker 3:So Let me just hear you say that you feel more called to step into Jewish stories and characters than perhaps years gone by, because I imagine for some Jewish performers and actors this has been a time of inhibition and a time of not wanting to, you know, tell the world and make it very clear to the world that they're Jewish well, don't get me wrong.
Speaker 2:I mean, there's, there's some of that too. I mean, I just did a I just had to put it down a self-tape for a TV commercial this afternoon, and I made sure that my Magen Bavid was hidden under my shirt, which I would not have done two years ago. You know I also I'm very conscious of what I'm posting on Instagram right now. Well, actually less so right now, because I'm now trying to promote a very Jewish play, but prior to that, when I was trying to promote Amy Winehouse and I had sent press releases out to, you know, all the newspapers, I stopped posting my pro-Israel Instagram posts because I didn't want someone to see it and not want to interview me. So, yeah, there's definitely that right now, but also, like I sort of there's another part of me that's like well, I may not get cast. I may not get cast as anything else because I'm, you know, a dirty Zionist. So maybe I should just be me Lean in. Yeah, lean in. Exactly, it's not really by choice, it's sort of just the way that it's gone, I guess.
Speaker 3:You're based half the year in the US, in New York as well Very Jewish city and a city with a lot of Jewish performers as well and directors and producers, which means that you're going to get picked and engaged by Jewish people. But I'm curious to know what the experience of your peers and colleagues might be like, because it's a very different context to here in Sydney.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wildly different, you know, mainly just because there's safety in numbers. You're never going to be the only Jew in the room in New York ever. I have lots of examples of that sort of experience post-October 7th, just a feeling like I was never alone as a Jew, either in the arts or otherwise. Yeah, it's very, very different, not to say that there isn't the same stuff kind of going on within the arts scene there, but there's just more Jews. You're never alone, yeah. So here it's different.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about Anne. Being Frank, your upcoming show that's being held at the Sydney Opera House Dash, and I and our listeners, I'm sure, will be curious to know how you first got involved with this project. And you know, what was it about Ron Alicia's script that made you think I have to do this?
Speaker 2:It's got a great origin story which I love to tell. So Ron and I happen to be represented by the same agent and when COVID happened, those agents, who I like to name because they deserve to be named David Smith and Tanya McDonald of Smith and McDonald Creative Management, based here in Sydney they did what no other agent I would say in the entire world was doing, which was figuring out creative, beautiful ways to keep their clients buoyed and okay through the awful kind of COVID time where everybody had lost work. You know, I was supposed to do Fiddler on the Roof in Yiddish. It obviously got cancelled and never got put back on. It was a really difficult time for the arts and for everybody. But for the arts and my agents were just so I mean, I really just. I cannot kind of praise them enough for this because I genuinely know that no one else was doing this. They were organising weekly we had weekly Zoom happy hours, like five o'clock on a Wednesday. They would get all their clients on Zoom. We'd have wine, they'd run games, we'd talk, we'd schmooze, we'd get to know each other. And the other thing that they did is they started to connect their literary clients and their acting clients to do like Zoom play readings, just to keep things moving, just to keep connected, to keep us all okay and happy and creative and connected. It was really like it's really amazing. They're just amazing people. And so they knew that I had had a lot of experience with solo work.
Speaker 2:Ron is the most prolific playwright I think you could ever come across. He writes a new play every two weeks. He sends me plays like he'll write new plays faster than I can read them. He'll be like, hey, read this. And I'm like Ron, I haven't got 10 sitting here on my desktop but I haven't had a chance to read. And he just keeps writing them. So he has a ton of plays. But he sent me my agents, you know, sent me from him four solo plays for me to have a read. Because why not right? And one of them was Anne.
Speaker 2:Being frank, and when I read it it literally just took my breath away because of how, really, basically kind of how, how shocked I was that, despite my you know, I'm the grandchild of four Holocaust survivors. I know this history intimately. I also know it academically, I've studied it, I teach it, I work in this space, but this play just blew my mind, just unique and amazing. And then the other part of it was also that I was like, oh my God, this is like Everest for an actress, like it was just such an incredible challenge as an actor. And Everest for an actress like it was just such an incredible challenge as an actor. And in a way, maybe it's sort of like that the Amy Winehouse thing again, where it's kind of like I can't do that, I can't do that, but I want to try. I can't do that, I've got to. You know what I mean. So yeah, and then, and then we just we worked on it sort of together.
Speaker 2:Ron's really generous and really open, has much more generosity and much more of a collaborative spirit than I think his status should allow. He, he should be much more kind of. I'm always like Ron. I hate to like offer you this suggestion, because it's like who am I to offer this guy a suggestion? He's like a genius and like still such a brilliant playwright, but he's wonderfully collaborative. And so we worked on it back and forth and you know we had a couple of different directors kind of look at it. We did some readings and then I submitted it to this sort of workshop festival, new work kind of festival in New York and then that led to the Off-Broadway production which led to we did Florida last year, and now here we are in Sydney. It's really exciting.
Speaker 1:You described it as the Everest. Is that because you're playing? Is it five different characters with five different?
Speaker 2:accents. Yeah, it's like four main characters and a few little kind of bits and pieces here and there in four different accents. Yeah, the accents are. The accents are Dutch, German, Polish-Russian and a Mid-Atlantic.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:Mid-Atlantic is like that fake made-up accent. You know that, like Catherine Hepburn speaks in and those you know old-timey American actors of the 50s.
Speaker 3:I think what kind of intrigues me about the play and your role in it, alexis, is the fact that this is an alternate history. So the concept behind the show is that, you know, the audience is asked to consider what could have been and moves from being in hiding, being in Bergen-Belsen, to living her final days and an unfulfilled future in a swanky New York publishing house, which, of course, we have to suspend. What we know and imagine what could have been, what could her life have been had she not died in a concentration camp and ended up in New York? And that alternate history sometimes evokes a strong reaction from people and I think it can be really vulnerable to criticism. People can really be very upset, particularly if you're talking about a history of World War II and the history of the Holocaust. So you've done this in the US and in Florida, a city of state with a high number of Holocaust survivors and their grandchildren and great-grandchildren. Tell us about how people have responded to the play.
Speaker 2:Look, the response has been wonderful and obviously you know we've gotten this far. So you know the people like the play. Look, the response has been wonderful and obviously you know we've gotten this far. So you know the people like the play. But it's interesting.
Speaker 2:You know the play does not. It doesn't shy away from put it this way. It's not recommended for audiences younger than 15 or 16, say, right, like it's got some seriously heavy themes in there. You know there's sexual violence and there's it's hardcore and it is scary to do that or to present an iconic figure like Anne Frank in that way. You know, there's a couple of people that I think are kind of sort of you know you might be able to turn them kind of Anne Frank devotees or purists or whatever that have a very hard time with that. But I maintain that, although we do not know what happened to Anne Frank, and we can assume, and let's hope, that what is depicted in the play is not what happened to Anne Frank, but we know it happened to many, many, many, many, many thousands of people, and so I think that the historical veracity of it is that the right word veracity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah yeah, the historical veracity of it is accurate in that nothing that we are saying in the play was impossible and really, like you know, without sort of wanting to give too much away, I mean Anne is desperately trying in this play to rewrite her diary because she fears that she doesn't want people to believe what she wrote, that people are truly good at heart now that she has seen the people that are not. So she's desperately trying to rewrite the whole thing and send out a warning to the world about what she now knows and what she didn't know when she was in hiding in the attic. And she goes to great lengths. She goes to great lengths to be able to write in the camps, which is you know where some of that stuff that I just mentioned comes in. And you know again, without giving too much away, but none of this to me is, you know, I just I don't find any of it. I just don't find any of it unrealistic and actually, interestingly, you know, some people sort of question whether or not Anne would have gone to these lengths to write. And could she have written if she was that sick?
Speaker 2:I mean, ron maintains that people went to extraordinary lengths in the camps to do this sort of thing and on the flip side, you know, I've always thought that none of this is actually happening to Anne. She's dying in Bergen-Belsen as this play takes place and it's all actually in her mind. It's all a kind of fever dream perhaps, or you know, you'll come see the play and you'll tell me what you think. But there is sensitivity absolutely around. There's always sensitivity around this subject matter and there's particular sensitivity around Anne Frank. But again, I stand by it because I think that this is and this is really the point of the play. The point of the play is to go. You know what? Like shit things happen, hard stuff happens, evil exists. Let's not pretend that everybody has the same sort of liberal, tolerant worldviews that we would hope they do. You know that there's shit stuff in the world and here it is.
Speaker 1:Speaking of which, I'm told that the Sydney Opera House has had to field through some pretty hardcore shit commentary on their social media pages because of the very fact that they are putting on a play about a Jewish person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which you know, is not, sadly, not surprising. It doesn't make it any less horrifying. I've read many of those comments. There's Holocaust denial, there's accusations of Zionist conspiracy, propaganda stuff. There's all of these comments about bad timing, bad timing, tone deaf. How does the Opera House think they can put this on now? It's sort of like all right, well, I don't know about that. But yeah, it's not surprising, but it's horrifying.
Speaker 1:So, with that in mind, who do you think needs to see this show the most, and how do we get them there?
Speaker 2:Well, the people that need to see this show the most are the people that will never come to see this show, unfortunately. But look, we are trying to sort of start a little bit of a campaign of like, hey, bring a non-Jewish friend to see this play. Right, grab a non-Jewish person you know and invite them to come along with you. Obviously, I believe in the power of theatre to change minds and hearts and souls and all that sort of stuff. I don't think one play is going to change the world or is going to solve the problems of antisemitism or any of that stuff. But again, for me, its play just reminds me. It reminds me that evil has to be confronted and it can't be shoved under the rug. And I would hope that perhaps some people that might be inclined to look at the world with rose-coloured glasses may be reminded of some of humanity's darkest moments and might go you know what we better be vigilant to that moments and might go.
Speaker 3:You know what. We better be vigilant to that and without giving it away. Alexis, you hint that the play moves beyond Anne's childhood or adolescent view on the world and brings the perspective of a grown woman, a woman that had lived a longer life with more, fuller experiences. Was there a sense in the making of the play that the diary that is all that we've been left with is perhaps trapped in a time of innocence and that actually Anne's perspective and view for a likely will have changed and evolved and we need to play with that possibility in order to broaden this conversation about the past absolutely dash.
Speaker 2:That's exactly the whole purpose and the whole kind of thesis really of the play and frank and the journal.
Speaker 2:But really her as a person is kind of held up as this beacon of grace and hope and tolerance and innocence and everything's okay because Anne Frank forgives everybody, because she thinks people are still good at heart. And this play really strongly questions that idea, you know, and, yeah, forces us to confront the fact that, even forgetting what she might have done or might have said or might have been post-war, she lived another six months after we stopped reading the journal and, you know, would have experienced some pretty horrible things, which is what this play, you know, makes us confront, which that was the part for me that took my breath away when I initially read. It was just like, oh my God, how have I not thought beyond the end of this journal? Why do I think of Anne Frank as this, like sort of happy, sweet teenager that, oops, stopped writing on, you know, in August of 1944. And then I don't know what happened to her? I mean, you do, but you never think about it.
Speaker 1:That's not your fault. I think everyone experiences that.
Speaker 2:That's my point though, right Like this is the thing we all, just we don't think very deeply, we don't think very critically.
Speaker 3:I'm assuming you read the book for the first time in high school, would that be right?
Speaker 2:I read it in my early 20s. I didn't read it in high school.
Speaker 1:Alexis Dash. I'm ashamed to admit that I've never read the diary of Anne Frank.
Speaker 2:That's perfect. Listen, I recommend reading it because it's actually a great piece of literature.
Speaker 1:Okay, I've also never seen Schindler's List.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because nobody goes to the video store and says, let's get out Schindler's List tonight.
Speaker 1:Our parents do.
Speaker 2:Maybe I don't know. I remember being like I also hadn't seen Schindler's List until I was well, not as old as you, but you know too old. That's a great shame to admit, tammy. What are you ashamed to admit? Like in general, it's pretty silly. I have an addiction to a, a world of reality tv. Have you heard of 90 day?
Speaker 3:fiance, have you heard?
Speaker 2:of the 90 day fiance franchise. No, no, I need to, though oh, it's so good, you guys, but I'm I'm addicted and there's like, there's like, there's like I'm not I'm not joking there's like must be 15 sp spin-offs of this original program. And my husband just laughs at me. And it's ridiculous because I think of myself as a kind of cultured, intelligent woman, but I'm obsessed with this ridiculous show.
Speaker 1:All of my smartest, most cultured, most sophisticated friends have a little secret love of crummy reality TV shows. I actually think that's a sign that you are incredibly intelligent. Why Anecdotal evidence? What is the 90 Day Fiancé?
Speaker 2:So it's actually called the 90 Day Fiancé Universe because there's so many spin-off shows, but it's basically it's genius. It's about Americans and their foreign-born partners, right. And the 90 days is because there's a visa called the K-1 visa in the United States which allows for you to bring over a fiance. It's a fiance visa. See, dash is laughing because he knows it's ridiculous. It is, I'm ashamed to admit it.
Speaker 3:I'm also laughing because I'm aware that you've been in that position, I'm sure, as someone who was not a permanent resident in the US with an American husband.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, I got my green card before we got married. No, no, I'm not one of those people. I got my green card on my own, not as a wife.
Speaker 3:But you understand the position that some of these people might be in.
Speaker 2:Well, here's the thing, right. So, like, the reason why I love this show is because about half of these people actually less so now in the early days half of them were, like you know, like russian mail order brides with, like these disgusting 60 and 70 year old men with very young, beautiful girls that are clearly just trying to get to the united states, right. But then there's a lot of like normal couples that you know, just met or whatever. They're just normal're just normal people. So you get like, you get this like culture clash, you get like the love stories will they won't they actually get married. Because I've only got 90 days to get married. I, like, I am interested in. I know it's hard for people to live away from their home country, so I relate to some of these people as well.
Speaker 1:I see a musical in this Alexis Tammy that's very interesting. But think about all the accents you could do from all these foreign countries. Right a one-woman show yeah, yeah, yeah, a one-woman show. You have played all these characters throughout your career. I'm curious to know because you're a big deal when the biopic of your life is made who's going to play you, and you don't have to say me, because I can't sing so.
Speaker 2:Tammy, I think you would be definitely in the top three choices.
Speaker 1:Me, sarah Silverman, you, sarah.
Speaker 2:Silverman and probably my little cousin Genevieve Goldman. She just graduated Whopper a few years ago and is doing very, very well. So yes, she could do it as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we'll give it to her.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think she should probably do it. But I mean, really it's very sweet of you, but like just an actor guys.
Speaker 1:No, you're not. You're one of a kind, and you know who agrees with me, your sister Joanna. I've never met her, but I'm told that she is going hard on the promotions. Is she older or?
Speaker 2:younger. I am the baby of the family. Everybody's promoting my family, have always been great promoters of my work, which I really appreciate. Everyone's going hard for Anne Frank because you know it's a big deal, it's exciting it is.
Speaker 1:It's an important show and we know that all of our listeners will be there with an ally or with an anti-Semite. Bring an anti-Semite If you can find one who's willing to go and spend the cash.
Speaker 2:Yeah, bring a friend. Any friend will do. But if there's a non-Jewish friend, then that would be lovely. It'll be a rich night at the theatre.
Speaker 1:Anne being Frank will be on next month, so in September, at Sydney Opera House. It's presented by Monstrous Theatre, neil Gooding Productions and Shalom Collective. Alexis, we will leave details of how to book tickets to see you in Anne being Frank at the Sydney Opera House. Thank you so much for joining us today. My pleasure, you guys have been really fun.
Speaker 3:Thanks, Alexis.
Speaker 1:That was our chat with Alexis Fisherman, and that's it for this week.
Speaker 3:You've been listening to A Shame to Admit with me, Dash Lawrence.
Speaker 1:And me Tammy Sussman.
Speaker 3:This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King, with theme music kindly provided by Donovan Jenks.
Speaker 1:If you like the podcast, leave a review and forward it to a mate. That way other people can find us.
Speaker 3:As always. Thank you so much for your support, for your downloads, for your follows. Look out for us next week. Thank you.