Ashamed to Admit
Are you ashamed to admit you're not across the big issues and events affecting Jews in Australia, Israel and around the Jewish world?
In this new podcast from online publication The Jewish Independent, Your Third Cousin Tami Sussman and TJI's Dashiel Lawrence tackle the week's 'Chewiest and Jewiest' topics.
Ashamed to Admit
Beyond Survival: Sydney Jewish Museum's Bold New Chapter
After welcoming over one million visitors since opening its doors in 1992, the Sydney Jewish Museum is embarking on an ambitious and brave transformation that speaks directly to our tumultuous present moment.
Senior Curator Shannon Biederman shares a curator's perspective on navigating the delicate balance between preserving Holocaust testimony and celebrating living Jewish culture in the post-October 7 age.
The week's episode is sponsored by the Sydney Jewish Museum
Articles related to this week's episode:
More information about the redevelopment:
https://capitalappeal.sydneyjewishmuseum.com.au/
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Are you interested in how Jewish museums are evolving from places of Holocaust remembrance to living spaces that reflect the full spectrum of Jewish life?
Speaker 2:In today's episode, I'll be speaking to the Senior Curator at the Sydney Jewish Museum about how October 7th and the rise in anti-Semitism have reshaped the urgency of the museum's mission and their shift from living testimony to digital memory and the challenges of curating contemporary Jewish identity in all its complexity today.
Speaker 1:Who knows if she'll be ashamed to admit anything. It's season three of this Jewish Independent podcast and we seem to be dropping our shame.
Speaker 2:Some of us more than others.
Speaker 1:Come along for the ride, as we have a go at cutting through some seriously chewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 2:Welcome to this week's episode of Ashamed to Admit. Hello everyone. I'm Dash Lawrence from the Jewish Independent.
Speaker 1:And I'm the Sydney Jewish Museum.
Speaker 2:You're actually Tammy, sussman, tammy.
Speaker 1:That might be true, but I am also the Sydney Jewish Museum Dash.
Speaker 2:Say some more about that.
Speaker 1:According to the International Council of Museums Right, a museum is a non-for-profit permanent institution in the service of society that researches, collects, conserves, interprets and exhibits tangible and intangible heritage. It's open to the public, it's accessible and it's inclusive. Now stay with me.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:I am not for profit.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:I have my tax return to show for that. Yeah, some have called me an institution. Others have said I should be institutionalized. I collect, I conserve, I interpret and exhibit tangible and intangible heritage. I am open to the public, I'm accessible, I'm inclusive, I am Jewish. I was born raised. I now live in Sydney. Raised, I now live in Sydney. I am a Sydney Jewish Museum. I was also born in 1987. And do you know when? The Sydney Jewish Museum in. Darlinghurst was yes. What's the word I'm looking for? Not erected.
Speaker 2:Its doors were open in 1992 for the first time, Tammy, so five years after you were brought into the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I'm the OG. That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:Ah, I see, I see, okay, good one, tammy.
Speaker 1:You know who agrees with me.
Speaker 2:Who.
Speaker 1:The Australian Charities and Non-for-Profits Commission. I'm pleased to share that I now have charity status. Unfortunately, the Sydney Jewish Museum have trademarked that name, so I've made up a new one.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:I'm officially the Sydney Even More Jewish Museum, so ready for those donations, send them in. I'll leave a link in the show notes.
Speaker 2:Tammy, can we start with a brief history lesson? Sure, you know I love a little bit of local history, a little bit of Australian Jewish history. So this little museum that we're talking about today, you mentioned in Darlinghurst, opened its doors in 1992 as a place to commemorate the Shoah. It was established by Sydney Holocaust survivors. The site that they chose was called- Ooh, pop quiz what Maccabean Hall. Yes, otherwise known as the Mac correct? Ooh, yeah, didn pop quiz. What Maccabean.
Speaker 1:Hall. Yes, otherwise known as the Mac, correct? Ooh, yeah, Didn't know that.
Speaker 2:The Mac opened in 1923, initially as a place for Jewish war memorial, so to commemorate the Jewish soldiers who had served in the Australian Army. But then, as the years went on and obviously the Sydney Jewish community's needs changed, and by the kind of middle part of the 20th century when you had a big influx of European Jewish migration, the MAC turned into a space primarily there to welcome new migrants, provide English lessons, skills lessons and eventually social dances. That's right. So lots of people will say oh, you know, mum and dad or my grandparents met at the Mac Hall.
Speaker 1:Hey Dash.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:My grandparents met at the Mac Hall.
Speaker 2:There we go. I could not have scripted that better.
Speaker 1:I know. My late grandfather, who was a Holocaust survivor, met my Aussie grandmother, Granny Betty, the Maccabean Hall.
Speaker 2:So many people have close connections with the Maccabean Hall. This group, as I mentioned before, of Sydney Holocaust survivors were looking for a space to establish this place to commemorate the Shoah, located it there and since that establishment, 23 years ago, it has, believe it or not. Tammy welcomed 1 million visitors through its doors and has been credited with opening the minds and hearts of generations of people who have met Holocaust survivors for the very first time by going there and touring the museum and meeting the survivors. Even Premier Chris Minns recently said I have never forgotten my first visit to the Sydney Jewish Museum as a 13-year-old student at Marist College in Coggera. It had a lasting impact on me.
Speaker 2:The need to live the values of tolerance and understanding and to challenge hatred is more pressing than ever. So it has clearly left a mark on the Premier's mind, but the minds of many others. But Tammy, times are changing, so the Sydney Jewish Museum has decided that not only does it need a fresh coat of paint, but it needs an entire redevelopment, a major overhaul of its collection. It needs to be brought into the 21st century. Overhaul of its collection. It needs to be brought into the 21st century and we wanted to understand why and how they're going to overhaul this legacy building.
Speaker 1:Who did you speak to from the Jewish Museum today?
Speaker 2:I spoke with senior curator Shannon Biederman, who has been at the museum for a little over 20 years.
Speaker 3:Wow.
Speaker 2:Shannon knows the museum inside and out and obviously is having a big hand to play in the new museum that is going to open its doors to the public in Sydney in 2027.
Speaker 1:Amazing to the public in Sydney in 2027. Amazing If she knows the museum inside out, does she know where to find a parking spot? That's longer than one hour around the streets of Darlinghurst.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure even Shannon can help you out with that one.
Speaker 1:Did you?
Speaker 2:ask her that I didn't. But as someone who has been to the museum and I know that exactly the problem you're talking about it's anti-Semitic, quite frankly.
Speaker 1:It is, I think we need to call up old Chris Minns and say it left a lasting impact. Well, the stress of finding a parking spot is leaving a lasting impact on our community. Now, Dash, did you ask her if she's ashamed to admit anything?
Speaker 2:She revealed that she's ashamed to admit that she has a limited attention span these days when it comes to museums. So that's something that we got into a little bit. Talked about how attention spans are changing and you know they need to design a museum that meets where people are at Tammy. Have I still got you there? You still listening?
Speaker 1:Did you ask her?
Speaker 2:The TikTok, generation, tammy, yeah, no, I tuned out.
Speaker 1:I was thinking whether there's talk of installing wet wipes dispensers in the new toilets at the Sydney Jewish Museum, because that's culturally sensitive. Did you ask her that?
Speaker 2:Didn't ask her that, but anything is possible with this new space. Think of it as a clean slate, a fresh start. Yes, they will be bringing forward elements of the old museum and elements of the established collection, but it's a pretty exciting new opportunity to celebrate a contemporary Jewish life today, and I think we all need a little bit of celebration, a little bit of leaning into what makes Jewish life and Jewish identity vital and alive today.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Tammy, grab your ticket at the counter, plug in your listening guide and join me as we go on this tour of the Sydney Jewish Museum with Senior Curator Shannon Biederman. Shannon Biederman, welcome to the Ashamed to Admit studio.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:Shannon, we're going to talk today primarily about the Sydney Jewish Museum. You've been at the museum for 20 years almost two-thirds of the museum's existence so you've got a very close connection with the museum. How did you get there?
Speaker 3:I was living in Paris and while I was there I was a teacher, so I had a card to get into all French national museums for free, and so I spent a lot of time wandering around them. I didn't know anyone, I didn't have really anything to do or any money, and that's when I fell in love with museums. I moved to Sydney to do my master's in museum studies. I always thought I would be at the art gallery or the MCA, and I had to do two internships and I decided it was my last opportunity to try something different. So I applied for an internship at the Sydney Jewish Museum and ended up taking that one and being at the museum surrounded by Holocaust survivors.
Speaker 3:The kind of importance of their message, the passion everyone had it kind of made the art world feel a little bit frivolous, and so I really loved it. I ended up doing my second internship there as well, and the museum hired me and sponsored my visa. So it's now been 20 years. The first 12 years I was at the museum, I was Shannon McGuire. The first 12 years I was at the museum, I was Shannon Maguire.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:But my husband is Jewish, which is why I was really interested in doing an internship, because I wanted to learn more about his background.
Speaker 2:Fascinating. Had you had much exposure to Jewish museums during that trip to France? I know that Paris has a very famous Jewish museum. Did you visit that space?
Speaker 3:I never did and I didn't know my husband at that time. I did, through one of my art classes, meet a Holocaust survivor who was rediscovering his memory through art, but otherwise I had very limited exposure, I would say, to the Jewish community.
Speaker 2:Well, 20 years now and a marriage to a Jewish man, you've got a lot more exposure. So almost your entire career has been working at the Sydney Jewish Museum. Tell me why has the museum, in 2025, decided to not just redevelop the space, not just redevelop the space, but reposition itself as well, because the museum was established by Holocaust survivors in 1992. And as a part of this redevelopment, you're looking to celebrate living Jewish culture alongside that Holocaust remembrance. Tell us why the change?
Speaker 3:Our museum is really interesting if you compare it to Holocaust museums around the world. Ours you start with the ground floor displays, which is on Jewish life culture, Australian Jewish history, and the survivors at our museum always felt really passionate that people understand who the Jews are, that they see them as human beings before they go upstairs and see what happened in the Holocaust. As the museum grows, we have the opportunity to just do more, and I feel like over the years many of us have noticed that often the Jewish Museum is the only place that individuals have the opportunity to meet and see a Jewish person, and I think the idea that the only thing that people know about Jews is the Holocaust is actually kind of sad.
Speaker 2:Given that the museum was established by Holocaust survivors, and I imagine that their children and grandchildren have a strong connection with the space and perhaps are donors and long-standing supporters of the museum how have they taken to and responded to the decision to reposition the museum?
Speaker 3:I think it's just adding to the museum. So our core business of Holocaust is still staying the same. We expect our student numbers, I think. Last I heard 90% of schools in New South Wales come and visit the museum and that's only going to continue as the Holocaust has been put into the curriculum and I think the museum does a really great job of their work. I was recently at a conference in London and people were shocked to find out that almost every student in New South Wales has the opportunity to meet a Holocaust survivor. It's really exceptional. What we do. This is just an add-on, so people hopefully have reasons to keep coming back to the museum again and again.
Speaker 2:Just on that. I did want to talk briefly about the centrality of Holocaust testimony and the survivor experience. Tell us, how many survivors do you still have alive who are giving testimonies in person at the museum?
Speaker 3:There's about 33 Holocaust survivors still sharing their stories at the museum and there's still more coming. These are a lot of the children of Holocaust survivors, but we would expect for several years to come students are still going to be able to have that firsthand personal interaction with the Holocaust survivor.
Speaker 2:Given that you've been there for 20 years now, I'm interested if there have been any differences between some of those older Holocaust survivors. They would have been either adults, young adults versus those now that were very, very young. Tell us a little bit about some of the differences between their experiences and how they remember.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's really changed. And how they remember? Yeah, it's really changed. And it has made me sad over the years, because when I started at the museum in 2005, there were Holocaust survivors. They'd be stationed all around the floor. Every adult and student visitor would have the opportunity to meet a survivor, and now it's becoming less and less likely there is. I think maybe what you're alluding to is early on there was a hierarchy within the community. Sometimes you felt about the ones who were in the camps versus the different experiences, and one of the first exhibitions I did at the museum actually I think this was my first was called Butterflies of Hope, which was the experience of child survivors, and about 20 years ago I know a lot of them had a lot of hesitancy about coming and speaking in the museum, particularly because children didn't survive the camp, so they didn't have that experience to share and they didn't necessarily feel it was valid. And so over the years, I think that that experience has become more validated and they are feeling more and more comfortable in sharing their stories.
Speaker 2:And wonderful to hear that even still today, there are new people that are stepping forward and deciding that now's the right time in their lives to share their stories.
Speaker 2:Hmm in their lives to share their stories. So this redevelopment, this expansion, is happening at a moment when anti-Semitism is rising, not just globally but sadly, here in Australia. October 7th has presumably created a new urgency around Jewish education, at least for Jewish organisations and leadership. I know it's front of mind for them. But you're also, with this expansion, with this redevelopment, you're moving towards celebrating contemporary Jewish life rather than focusing on persecution. So I'm just interested, shannon, in to how you might be thinking about how to both, on the one hand, respond to the contemporary currents of persecution and the historical ones as well, while also projecting that sense of Jewish vitality, because there is a tension there isn't there.
Speaker 3:It is, and I often lament what has happened for other reasons than just how awful everything is. The plan started before October 7th and we had this vision of putting forth a vision of Jewish life. You know is vibrant and joyful and beautiful, and since October 7th that has just become increasingly difficult because it is a lot about fighting anti-Semitism. But I think this original vision is actually a very good way to do it, because there's fighting anti-Semitism, which is talking about anti-Semitism and knowing Jewish values and how beautiful practice is and the religion is, and so I'm hoping that the new space will allow for that, because I think you know, I read this really great article in Superior the other day, this journal, and they talk about how, you know, there's always this idea in Jewishness, in Jewish history, the chosenness about Jews are set apart and anti-Semitism does remind you know, the whole community that they are set apart.
Speaker 3:But Judaism answers the question why? And it's talking about going back to, like, the roots of the Jewish identity and celebrating it and trying to build a piece of community. That anti-Semitism has happened for thousands and thousands of years. You're not going to fight it but, like you need to instill that sense of pride. And so I think in the new space, like my dream for it is hopefully a place that instills pride amongst the Jewish community so that when they're out there in the world, that you know they want to represent the community, that they want to stand up, that they don't shy away from who they are, that maybe you know, if they have friends who are saying things that they don't like or that are slightly anti-Semitic, they can send them to the museum and show them the richness and the beauty of Jewish life.
Speaker 2:Now, when it comes to showing them the richness and the beauty of Jewish life, you've got so much that you can show, whether it's religiously, politically, culturally, people that are so diverse, so different across the globe and even here in Australia, very diverse. So, from a curatorial perspective, tell me about the task of deciding who and what to incorporate into the collection how do you represent that diversity without sanitizing the spaces and dealing with sometimes controversial questions, questions about intermarriage or about who is Jewish, halakhically speaking? I don't envy your job on that front, shannon.
Speaker 3:No, no, and to make it coherent as well, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:For the visitor, because it is.
Speaker 3:It's a huge challenge because, you know, everyone's Jewish identity is different, but what is the commonality and also, as we know, within the Jewish community, argument and differences of opinion is a cornerstone of that, and so it's something that we are really thinking hard about, of that, and so it's something that we are really thinking hard about.
Speaker 3:One of our solutions, though, is how the museum previously was, when you walked in and you had all of the festivals and you know the different life cycle events birth, marriage, death. We're doing away with that, and so we are going to change our exhibitions every 18 months to two years the entire thing and so, instead of trying to tell the entire story, we are going to focus on a few and then change it over, because, you're right, there's just too many interesting and different things to talk about. So that's the good news is, we will get to everyone. We are really looking at also how technology can help us with this, and I know we were going to talk more about the interactive biographies that we did with Holocaust survivors, but I am spending a lot of time investigating how we can use AI, let's say, to bring in a lot of different voices from the community and have people ask questions and to be able to get a diversity of opinions, because really that is the core of the community.
Speaker 2:Right. So it's possible that in years to come, the museum may have AI generated content that answers some of the questions, that you've been able to train those AI models to answer questions that visitors have about the breadth of the Jewish experience and identity.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I wouldn't say we wouldn't ever use generative AI in a sense, but more of the ability to do crowdsourcing, to have lots of different opinions, because the more data you have, AI is actually very useful in helping people find the answers that they want.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you mentioned the crowdsourcing. I know that the museum is asking for the Sydney Jewish community to help them crowdsource ephemera, photographs, moments, things in time celebrating the richness of Sydney Jewish life and Australian Jewish life.
Speaker 3:So we just launched a site called Highlights C-H-A-I Lights.
Speaker 2:Beautiful Love a pun.
Speaker 3:Very good Thank you, me too, and this is an opportunity we realized at the museum. One of our roles is kind of an interface between the Jewish community and the wider Australian public to come in and meet the community, and we really want to be true to that vision and so we're giving everyone the opportunity to show what their Jewish community looks like to them and this is hopefully an easy way where everybody can contribute. They can show the little aspects of everyday life and it's really beautifully done. I have to say I really love it and I love just looking at the joyful moments of the community. I think it makes it feel really kind of personal, especially to our visitors.
Speaker 2:Absolutely and nice, from a curatorial perspective, to kind of hand the reins back over to the community and to kind of invite them to give you the content and the material to bring to the visitors of the museum.
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, we are a community museum. We are responsible to you know, being authentic and true to our community.
Speaker 2:So it's not always even what I feel or what I would like to do, but it's, it's really an exercise, I think, in listening as well so let's um go back a step, because you mentioned earlier AI, the constantly shifting nature of technology and the fact that you are likely, over the course of the next few years, going to lose more and more of those Holocaust survivors. That does necessitate the creation of AI-assisted testimony galleries, where its expected visitors will have lifelike conversations with digital versions of survivors, some of the survivors that presumably you currently have giving testimonies today. Shannon, as someone who's worked at the Sydney Jewish Museum for such a long time and seen the power of those survivors and their testimonies, what do you think we gain and lose when we move from that human storytelling, you know, face to face, to this technological simulation? Is there something that changes at all?
Speaker 3:You know it does change, like human to human.
Speaker 3:That personal touch is always best, that is the preferred, but unfortunately we have to be realistic and so this is the next best thing, I think for some of your listeners who are maybe ashamed a bit.
Speaker 3:This technology really is great for that, because what we find is people who are maybe shy or hesitant or, you know, kind of a little bit unwilling to ask a question to an individual because they're afraid to be judged or hurt that person's feelings. This technology really kind of strips that away and allows them to ask kind of the questions that they really are most curious about. So it's really great in that sense. And I would say, even during the interviews we learned so much about the survivors because there are some questions that we were too afraid to ask, but because we were forced to do this, because we you know a visitor might ask it, we had to do it anyway and we ended up learning a whole lot that we'd never heard before. So it's really great for that, and I would say the technology does fall away pretty quickly. You find that when people are interacting them, they still say hello, goodbye, please, thank you. All of those pleasantries stay in the conversation, as if they were speaking to a real person.
Speaker 2:And I believe that this form of technology is being adopted by many other Holocaust museums and Jewish museums around the world.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's even spreading outside of Jewish museums. Some other military museums I know have done this with ex-servicemen and women, amongst others.
Speaker 2:Did you manage to capture the stories of people like Olga Horak and Eddie Jaku before those two survivors passed, or was this done prior to?
Speaker 3:We recorded six Holocaust survivors, and we did Olga and Eddie. Eddie was 100 years old.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 3:Maybe even 101. When we did it, it was incredible because it's really physically demanding. Each one we had to film for about 20 hours, so they were long days with like a thousand questions, so to be able to physically sit there and to like emotionally as well as physically, it was a lot to ask.
Speaker 2:Did you have a lot to do with Eddie over the years.
Speaker 3:Yes, eddie was there the entire time that I was there. In fact, every time we walked by Eddie's book in the stores and stuff my son's always like Mom it's your friend, eddie.
Speaker 2:Even my kids were quite attached to him, yeah yeah, an extraordinary man with quite a life and has left a wonderful legacy through his memoir, but also now his testimony being there as a part of the collection for years to come. What did he and some of the survivors make about this? The use of this technology.
Speaker 3:It took quite a while, from the time we recorded to the time that it was ready to be seen. It took about a year because we had to first identify all of the different clips, then we had to create the software, then we had to test it, and so Eddie wasn't alive when we had finished it. I don't think Olga was either, but we did a private viewing session with the survivors and their families before bringing it to the public. I think that they were very happy that their message and their stories were going to live on. Anything that would perpetuate Holocaust memory into the future they were all very supportive of.
Speaker 2:The museum was established by Holocaust survivors in 1992, no doubt motivated by the design to commemorate and to bring their experience, their great loss and their great trauma, to let it be heard, to let it be known. You're now planning for an era where they are no longer there. How does Holocaust memory change when those that were alive to experience it firsthand and who lived through it are no longer there to speak its memory, and it's left to others, who are several generations on from them, to be the ones tasked with bringing that memory forward and commemorating it.
Speaker 3:Hmm, I mean, memory is always changing. So even the Holocaust survivors, their testimonies right after the war versus 20 years, 40 years, 60 years after the war. So memory is never static after the war. So memory is never static. I would say, like the second and third generation, it's really incredible to hear from them. We did a DIT with a survivor named Kuba Enoch and his daughter volunteers at the museum and she'll do a session with his interactive biography with groups. So she'll be talking about her father and then she will use that DIT and it's a really incredible session.
Speaker 2:Sorry that DIT is.
Speaker 3:Oh, it's Dimensions and Testimony. So those are those interactive biographies, but for me, like one of the most important things when we put them on display and with reverberations is Holocaust memory has really impacted the Sydney Jewish community in general and so, like one of the things that I hope visitors to the museum realize is you need to understand the Holocaust and what happened if you actually want to know even the second and third generation, because it it doesn't stop impacting the Jewish community's identity with the loss of that generation. Like if you look at the Gen 17 survey, which was done in 2017, holocaust remembrance was one of the top identifiers of Jewish identity within Australia. So it's really it's an important history for the rest of the public to know if they want to know who the Jewish community is. And I do think the second and third generation taking on the stories of their parents and grandparents is really important and they do a fantastic job because it makes that history personal.
Speaker 2:The museum has promised to create a space where people can learn about Jewish through taste and smell and touch, making Judaism experiential rather than historical. What's the thought behind that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so there's two groups of visitors that come to the museum. So there's the students which we've talked about, which is probably half to over half of our individuals who come to the museum. So there's the students which we've talked about, which is probably half to over half of our individuals who come to the museum and they're coming. They have no choice in the matter. The schools decide to go and they're coming. But the rest of our visitors they're kind of people who have different options in Sydney they could be going to Bondi Beach, they could be going to another museum or they could come to us.
Speaker 3:And so we want to, you know, encourage people on their weekends or whenever to come and visit to us. So we want to be fun, we want to show that there is a lighter side to Jewish life. I mean, research shows everybody loves food. I think we did a little bit of market research and like 80% of the people poll were really interested in those sorts of experiences or music, and so we want to be a vibrant spot where the community can come together, where non-Jews can come and get to know the community, and I think that hopefully it'll be encouraged more people to come in. And then, once they come in, then if they haven't seen the Holocaust exhibition, then they have the opportunity to go learn about that as well yes, yes.
Speaker 2:so the most people might not appreciate this about museums, but not only is there that educational component, where, obviously, in the case of Sydney Jewish Museum, they have a lot of students coming through, in some instances drag, kicking and screaming, but also this is a part of a visitor economy. This is museums are sites of visitation for local tourists, but also international tourists as well, which I imagine was not the case in 1992 when those Holocaust survivors first opened the doors to the Sydney Jewish Museum. I don't think there was any intention that this is a space meant to be where international visitors will come instead of going to Bondi Beach, maybe See, that has to be a core part of the museum in the 21st century, doesn't it?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, it's something we're thinking a lot about. They estimate that the families, let's say, with kids who go to museums there's about 700,000 of them in Sydney that will go to a museum in any one year, and right now we don't really offer anything for families with young children, we're not the space, but it would be great if you know some of those, even if it was 10%, 1%, that would be amazing. And then these kids become familiar with Jewish, judaism, jewish life, jewish people and then hopefully, they have another reason to come back before they reach school age and then they come and do the Holocaust is, I think, what our goal is.
Speaker 2:So the drawcard will be create a space that's more family friendly and, to go back to what you were saying before, people want food, so we're talking about a bigger cafe with more offerings that are going to potentially entice people.
Speaker 3:I don't know. Everyone feels really passionate about the cafe.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, I've got enough on my mind to deal with the new direction of the collection. You can worry about whether we serve bagels or sandwiches.
Speaker 3:I wish people were as passionate about the collection as they are the cafe.
Speaker 2:Okay, we're touching on potentially a point of tension here with regard to the project. Shannon's mind is first and foremost on the collection, but the reality is, as you said earlier, people. They want to go to a space and eat, and it's the visitor experience as much as it is an educational one as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we're thinking a lot about how we can do that or if we can do special programs where people can come and bake some challah on a Friday or around the different festivals, if they're making commentation. But we certainly want it to be more tactile, more fun to invoke all of the different senses.
Speaker 2:Shannon, how are you planning for your collection in an age of social media, of TikTok, where the Gen Zs have got limited capacity for sitting with kind of longer written forms? To be fair, not just the Gen Zs, I'm a Gen Y as well. I'm sure I'm probably guilty of it too. It's something that we're all aware, that our attention spans have diminished. We're so used to quick. You know quick, sharp content. Now Tell us about that, that challenge.
Speaker 3:I'm with you. I'm terrible at reading stuff at museums, I have to say.
Speaker 2:Right, and I bet, and I bet that wasn't the case when you first did your tour in Paris decades ago, right?
Speaker 3:No, it might be the thing I'm ashamed to admit. I have to say I don't think it really impacts our collection. It's because our collection is the collection. It's more about an interpretation.
Speaker 3:And so I think and this is back to like the AI and being able to personalize content is, if you have lots of different content, if you have lots of different testimonies, whatever you're looking as you're going through the exhibition, you can kind of touch upon that version that speaks to you. So if you are, let's say, looking at an object and you want to know more about that person's story, or if you want to know how it's made, or if you want to know more of a religious, then I think technology will enable. Then I think technology will able, because what we found with our research, with the interactive biographies, is when people are able to investigate areas that are of interest to them, they are engaged longer. If I'm telling you something, it might interest me, but it's not going to interest you, you're going to move on quicker. I really have a lot of hope in technology because I think, especially with TikTok and the algorithms, everything is a bit personally tailored these days.
Speaker 2:So the sort of past way of stepping into a museum space with like panels that have lots of text and you kind of move from one panel to another and read the story.
Speaker 3:We've all been to those museums, right, and that's behind us it's all behind us right and I think museums were kind of that academic space where somebody who knew a lot about a subject had a lot to tell you yeah but because in a museum, like in an exhibition, you can't possibly talk about everything.
Speaker 3:We're not a book, we're not a film. People can only stand and read for so long. My goal with an exhibition is to spark someone's curiosity, and so they go and they learn one interesting thing, and then hopefully that inspires them to go on a lifelong journey of learning, and so the next time they see that book or the movie comes out, they're going to want to you know, delve into that topic further and hopefully, with the new museum and how we're doing things is we're constantly changing exhibitions People will want to come back and learn one more thing and then maybe learn another thing.
Speaker 2:Okay, shannon, so we're coming to the end of our conversation today, but before we do, we probably should mention the fact that, as a part of the redevelopment and the repositioning of the Sydney Jewish Museum, the museum is running an appeal to the community. It's called Now More Than Ever, and you are encouraging people to make donations and contribute to everything that we've just described in today's conversation. Why is it important that the Sydney Jewish community contribute to this appeal?
Speaker 3:I think the Sydney Jewish Museum plays a really important role for the community. We are the place where the non-Jewish public can come and meet the Jewish community and I think, now more than ever, we really need that. There's a lot of confusion about who the Jews are and who the Jews are in Sydney. I think that we really also have to show all of the contributions. We have to give people an opportunity to learn a little bit more about Judaism and Jews than what they see on social media. So I think plans for the future really are important. I think we have a lot of opportunities. There's a lot of people that we just don't reach, so I hope everyone comes and supports the capital appeal. We have a lot of great events. They start on September the 7th, which is the Sunday, and you can come.
Speaker 2:You can come on a little tour of some of our plans and see what's going on we'll leave all the details about the, the appeal now more than ever, the details about the events that you've got coming up, and also make mention of highlights as well, which is another great way that you can contribute to the new museum, if it's not financially. Share your photos, share your highlights and help shape the future of the Sydney Jewish Museum opening your doors in 2027, I believe.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:So you've still got a little way to go, but it's going to be really an exciting moment for the community and very exciting for you, shannon, as someone who's been there for 20 plus years, it'll be wonderful for you to see this new space emerge, this latest iteration of the museum. Thank you for joining us on Unshamed to Admit, it's been wonderful to learn more about the museum, learn more about its future directions and to reflect on its role today.
Speaker 3:Thanks for having me, Dash.
Speaker 1:That was Dash's chat with Shannon Biederman, senior Curator at the Sydney Jewish Museum, and that's it for this week. All the links to the appeal and to the highlights are in the show notes.
Speaker 2:You've been listening to A Shame to Admit with me, Dash Lawrence.
Speaker 1:And me Tammy Sussman.
Speaker 2:This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King, with theme music by Donovan Janks, and thank you to the Sydney Jewish Museum for bringing today's episode.
Speaker 1:Dash. If listeners liked this episode and this podcast in general, what should they do?
Speaker 2:Leave us a review, pass it on to your hairdresser, your grandmother.
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Speaker 2:As always, thanks for your support and look out for us next week.