Ashamed to Admit
Are you ashamed to admit you're not across the big issues and events affecting Jews in Australia, Israel and around the Jewish world?
In this new podcast from online publication The Jewish Independent, Your Third Cousin Tami Sussman and TJI's Dashiel Lawrence tackle the week's 'Chewiest and Jewiest' topics.
Ashamed to Admit
How did Jewish people end up living all over the world?
Welcome back to Season 4 of The Jewish Independent’s podcast ASHAMED TO ADMIT. In the first episode of the season, Tami Sussman asks BRAND NEW CO-HOST Shoshana Gottlieb Beker how Jews ended up in so many places around the world! Plus, they introduce a new segment which exposes the craziest things people post in Jewish Facebook Groups.
ASHAMED TO ADMIT: It’s everything you didn’t get in Jewish Studies Class.
This episode was filmed at Storytellers Australia.
The vocalist in the theme song is Sara Yael
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Shame to the west, shame to win the question. This is it. This is it. Why is what it's a book? Well open up the box. The article will open up your snake quite such a thing as a dumb question. Okay, that's mostly true.
SPEAKER_04:A shame to ask. It's everything you didn't get in Jewish studies class.
SPEAKER_01:Shoshana's like, I'm so busy preparing for this episode. Meanwhile, I see her posting pictures of her quadrant bagels. And then she tells me this morning, I just got new pants. No, as in like they got delivered to my house. Oh, okay. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, your generation don't go out to shops and buy pants. I mean, I do, but these ones came from the internet. Muzzle top.
SPEAKER_04:Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:I hope this was all being recorded. It was being recorded.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, because do you want to know how I found these pants? How? Um, I saw a 16-year-old boy wearing them and I was like, I like those. And then he like showed them to me, like which ones they were on his phone. And then I bought them.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. The sneakers that I wear traditionally, they are basketball sneakers. I need basketball sneakers for my autoimmune arthritic feet. I know. I know. Okay. They're like 300 bucks. So I buy teenage boy sneakers. Because it's like size down. 80 bucks. Wow. Yeah. Um, I should probably welcome everyone to our podcast. Welcome. Everyone, welcome back to a new season, new format of ashamed to admit.
SPEAKER_04:New person.
SPEAKER_01:New co-host. Yeah. I'm Tammy Sussman. I'm Shoshana Gottlib. We'll get a rock script eventually. Shoshana is a writer, a teacher. I said social commentator. Do you identify as one? Sure. Can I endow you with it? Yeah, identity is fluid. I'll be that. Alright. And you're also the brains behind Jewish memes only.
SPEAKER_04:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you. Pleasure. I'll take it as a compliment.
SPEAKER_04:It is. I don't know if it was intended as one. It definitely was. Yeah. Um, and Tammy. Is this my camera? Is this my camera? Is this my camera? That one. Tammy is an author, podcaster, celebrant, and columnist. No, I almost recommended you for a celebrant job. Almost. Like literally two nights ago. Okay, and what stopped you? I don't know if you'll be their vibe because I don't know if they are your vibe. Say more. Like they are very, how do I say this? Um, sincere people. Okay. You know what I mean? Like, I don't think they could handle the jokes.
SPEAKER_01:I, first of all, you've clearly never seen me do a wedding because yeah. And you also don't know that I have an advanced diploma in performing arts, acting. So congratulations. Thank you. Um that's that wasn't a compliment. That wasn't cause for a compliment. Um, I can be sincere. Anyway, thanks for bringing up uh the fact that you almost recommended me as a celebrant, kind of bringing up memories of when you almost booked me as your celebrant. And uh almost had a discussion about booking you as our celebrant. You would have booked me if you had had that meeting with me. As our theme song suggests, Shoshana and I, we're here for you. All those Jewy questions that you might be too ashamed to ask now as an adult. This podcast is basically it's like everything you didn't get in Jewish studies class. Yeah. Shoshana's agreeing with me, so we're off to a great start.
SPEAKER_04:Very not Jewish.
SPEAKER_01:Um very not Jewish to be. Yeah. That'll be, I think that'll be the only time this episode that we agree. It's just my it's just a prediction. It's okay. It's not an instrument.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, we can like discuss it off camera, but I thought the format of this was you asking questions. Like you presenting facts and like I don't know. We should have discussed this before. Not disagreeing with like I'll be like, the Jews left the land of Israel in 70 CE, and you'll be like, wrong.
SPEAKER_01:But I don't know why. I feel like we're having our first fight now. The Jewish independent told me that conflict is good for ratings. So I'm trying to manufacture some right now.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, on the topic of the Jewish independence.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_04:Are we allowed to call them the gin dependent?
SPEAKER_01:I'm asking it. Okay, I don't, I'm like, I'm just freelancing for them. So you don't have any I don't have any pool, but my ex, I mean ex-co-host. Oh, okay. Yeah, Dash Lawrence, he's the executive director. So you can ask him. I'll ask him. Yeah. I think gin dependent works. Yeah. All right, I'll put it to them. Thank you for your feedback. You're welcome. Um this podcast. Look, m some of you will be watching it on Spotify, on YouTube, some of you will be listening to it while you're washing up your dishes, walking your dogs, walking your cat if you're so inclined.
SPEAKER_04:I don't think I want that to be our listenership.
SPEAKER_03:All right.
SPEAKER_04:Like I don't want to alienate someone right off the bat, but if you are walking your cat, I don't think I want them.
SPEAKER_01:I do. If you're walking your cat, get in touch. Shoshana. Gotley Becker.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Did I introduce you like that originally?
SPEAKER_04:It's okay. I think I introduced myself incorrectly because I read my name off the sheet. As a bit, and then I read my old name.
SPEAKER_01:I'm still getting used to it, I assume you are as well. Yeah. Because you got married recently. I did. A few months ago. Yeah, a couple months ago. Muzzles and brochice. Thank you so much. I I know we do need to get to the question that I'm presenting to you, but before we do, we've just come back from a break, I guess. It's a new year, it's a new me, it's a new you. All that stuff, yeah. Yeah. Um highs and lows from the past few weeks. Oh, like just the past few weeks? Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Um I recently got back from overseas. Yes. So I'm gonna say like a real big low has been jet lag. Um like non-function, like I'm not functioning kind of levels of jet lag. I understand. Um I think that's about it. What about your highs? Um the trip was pretty good. Um seeing my wife again. Super high.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:She wasn't like the except like the the euphoria, you know, that was the high.
SPEAKER_03:Um that's about it. All right, cool. Just hanging out. Great.
SPEAKER_01:As a co-host, just so you know, you may want to throw it back to me and say, what about you, Tammy? Oh. Just high highs and lows, Tammy. I find the last week and a half. Yeah, find it quite hard to focus on the highs. I'm a pretty cynical person. Um great for weddings. Those come really naturally to me. Really great for funerals as well. Great. Just throw that in there. No one's been asking for funeral rec, but I'll keep it in mind. Thank you so much. Um, something I wanted to ask you. So, although from the past few weeks, there have been a few plagues in my life. Um, I did get a really bad bout of gastro. I got sea lice from the ocean. Um, yeah, biblicals. Yeah, so I've got sea lice. Look like I'm on meth. Um, and then I had a little Christmas tree. Because I don't know if you know this, but as a Jew, you can still have a Christmas tree. You can. Who knew? So I got a little one for my kids, and then two days ago, I noticed that there were maggots underneath the Christmas tree. That's what I wanted your own. Lice from the sea.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Was it gastro, like give or take, like that could be God, that could also just be having two kids, I guess. Yes. Um, no, but maggots in a Christmas tree in a Jewish house is like I would take it as a sign.
SPEAKER_01:I think so. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:If I were you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's either that or I just need to keep an eye on my four-year-old who took a dirty tea towel that I'd used to clean up some mess, folded it because she wanted to make it like a Christmas present, and put it under the tree.
SPEAKER_04:God works in mysterious ways. And that's what we're about. That person can be a vessel for godliness. And sometimes it's, you know, old guys on mountains hearing the voice of God, and sometimes it's four-year-olds and dirty food and napkins. And you can't you can't look a a a God gift in the mouth. That's that saying, right? Like, you just don't know.
SPEAKER_01:I I think take it as a sign. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. That's why I wanted to raise this. But now I promise you we're gonna get to the show. Yeah. Okay. How much time do we have for the show? So how long are these episodes? Yes, they're half an hour, so we really need to get a move on. Okay, Shoshana, I don't know if you know this about me, but I'm Ashkenazi. I had put it together. You never told me.
SPEAKER_04:It was just an inkling I had. How? Based on the chronic illness mentioned. Yeah. The the general vibe and demeanor, the skin color and tone.
SPEAKER_01:Racist, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Um and then I know one of your cousins. Okay. And I know that he's Ashkenazi. So there you go.
SPEAKER_01:All right. Uh I'm ashamed to admit that. Tell me. I really am. I'm not just manufacturing this shame either. So up until like pre-October 7, I had never stopped to think. Sorry, one second. Yes, I didn't. We're leaving that in, by the way. Pre-October 7, I had never stopped to think. Yeah. How did my ancestors get to those steddles in Eastern Europe, those small dewy, dewy towns in Eastern Europe. Never thought about it. Never thought about it. Okay. Like I'd we do it at Passover Seda every year, and we talk about the Jewish people l exiting, making an exodus from Egypt, and I knew about the land of Israel, I knew about Judea. And then just there was this whole part in the middle which I never thought to fill in that gap.
SPEAKER_04:Have you done any research recently? Or you've just been like putting it off? You're like, someone will tell me eventually.
SPEAKER_01:Well, it was then after October 7, then you know, what I'm seeing on social media is anti-Zionists and anti-Semites and racists calling Jews white. I'm like, but I've never ever identified as white. And other people telling me, well, you know, your your family from Eastern Europe weren't originally from Eastern Europe, they arrived in Eastern Europe.
SPEAKER_04:And also like go back to Poland, even if you're not from there, like yada yada, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So is that what this episode's about? Are you gonna help me understand? I hope to. Okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Um you can ask questions at any point.
SPEAKER_01:I will.
SPEAKER_04:And because we didn't, I'm just gonna like change scripts. Yeah. Not that I have to read the script, but like I I prepare. Yeah. And so I like to have the fact in front of me. Um no one gave me a parameter of like where to start, and so I thought I'd go like way back. Go way back. So not quite far as back to like the Exodus. Yeah. But I thought I'd start as like where we left the land of Israel the first time.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:Right. Um, so famously there were temples in Jerusalem, and there was like the first temple and the second temple. First temple gets destroyed around 586 BCE. So that's where we're gonna, that's the the first point we're starting with. Um the Babylonian Empire destroys that temple. Jews are forced to leave in different sort of waves of exile, and they settle in Babylonia, um, which eventually becomes like overtaken by the the Persian Empire, and then it's Persia. And at this time, just before that kind of like little bit, that's where we get the Purim story. Okay. Do you know the Purim story? I don't mean to sound facetious.
SPEAKER_01:I just want to like I do know the Purim story, but for those listeners or viewers who don't, I just want to just flag that we are going to do a whole episode on the Purim story in March when it is Purim. Um fantastic.
SPEAKER_04:But with the thing with Purim is that like it's one of our, I would say, more major minor holidays. Right? It's not one of the big ones, but it's still pretty important. Yeah. And it takes place completely outside of the land of Israel in during this first exile. Um then what happens is that the Persian Empire is a bit nicer to Jews. Um, they kind of like um like religious diversity and letting you do your own thing. And so that they let the Jews go back to the land of Israel from Babylon or Babylonia. Um but what like what kind of I'm gonna ask you some questions, I'm gonna throw some back. Okay. What do you think are the issues with like going back to Israel at that time?
SPEAKER_01:So they've been in in Babylonia. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:The temple's been destroyed, they've been kicked out, and now they're allowed back in.
SPEAKER_01:Now they're allowed back in. Alright. Like, what are some of the issues? Um maybe they other people are living in their homes or on their land. Less the issue. Mm-hmm. Um, they don't have temples, they need to rebuild those temples. Okay, so rebuilding is the big part. Okay.
SPEAKER_04:Because they're coming back to a land that like when the temple is destroyed, it's not like they're just like, you know, like missiling one building. Like this. They're ransacking like all of Jerusalem, they're like destroying cities around ancient Israel.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so they have none of their stuff.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, none of their stuff. They have to completely rebuild, and that takes time, money, like it's kind of in squalor, there's no economic opportunity because the land's been emptied of most people. Um, so the people who go back tend to be either more religiously inclined or slightly poorer. Like they've got nothing where they are, like they might as well go back. But people who are a bit more well off decide to stay in Babylonia. Yeah. And so they've got access to like merchants and I don't know, all of that rich Jew, Jewish stuff. I can say that, right? Yeah. Well, you said it. I said it. Like we can say it. The trade. I don't know. I'm a teacher, I'm not a businessman.
SPEAKER_01:Alright. I was just the the image that sprung to mind for me was like gemstones. Yeah. Like root.
SPEAKER_04:But also like think of like the like the like the um the Silk Road, right? Okay. Silk Root. Silk Road. Right. Yeah. Things like that. So they're named the road of silk. I do. I do. Um so they're dealing, I don't know, like textiles, some money, food, things. Like there's just more opportunity in general. Yeah. So But they're not doctors and lawyers. I don't know how much doctors and lawyers would have made in ancient Persia. Yeah. Mostly because I do think being a doctor in ancient Persia was like put a leech on it and like bow down ten times. Like there's like it's not actual medicine. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And cashed up trades, not yet. I wouldn't know.
SPEAKER_04:Okay. If so, we don't have the term for it. All right. And I don't think it's cashed up tradies. Okay. Great. Let's continue. Yeah. Um, so then we're back in the land of Israel. And then like lots of things happen, and then the Greeks are there, and there's a second temple, and then like it's half destroyed. Anyway, if we crash forward to like 70 CE, the second temple is destroyed by the Romans. Kind of like fully and absolutely. Deep sigh. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about it. What are you feeling? Again. Yeah. Like. Okay. Yeah, it's actually that's actually a quote in the Talmud. It's like, oh, again. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so the second temple's like fully destroyed. A bunch of Jews are sold into slavery, into like the Roman slave market. And so you've got lots of stories that pop up of like gladiator Jews, um, a couple who appear in the Talmud as well. Because, and this is really important, like when we mix culture, religion, history, the tent, like all of the stories of like the Talmudic rabbis. So, if you're thinking of people like Rabbi Akiva, you know that guy? Yeah, I do. Yeah. So Rabbi Akiva is living in this like Roman Judea like land of Israel, post-temple, trying to rebuild a Judaism that is no longer connected to temple worship. But instead, it's like, okay, we don't have a temple to serve God, so we can't give God animals that are burnt and like, you know, offered as sacrifice. What do we do instead? And that's when we start to turn to things like prayer and like more ritualistic things.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Whoa. Yeah. You've just reminded me that Jews used to sacrifice animals and incense and like things like that in a temple. Yeah, a huge part of it. Okay, so you saying that prayer came after that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Wow. Prayer, who knew? Prayer like prayer as it is today, in terms of we do it three times a day and we do certain things and we say certain things, replaced um like temple worship, which was for the most part animal sacrifice. Um and it's that shift towards like, well, we like if God is not at the temple and God doesn't want to have lunch, well then maybe God's all around me all the time. And so it's that kind of shift with the Talmud.
SPEAKER_01:Are you saying that Jewish practices can shift? I didn't say that. Before we move on, just thank you for the precious gift you just gave me of informing me that there were Jewish gladiators. So the next time someone shits on Jews for being like nerdy and scrawny and not hard. Yeah, we had a lot of people. And you also had the opposite.
SPEAKER_04:You had like, there's like a very famous example of a guy who like was a non-Jewish gladiator. Kind of like a Troy Bolton story of like, was it do you understand that reference?
SPEAKER_01:Troy Bolton.
SPEAKER_04:High school musical, yes.
SPEAKER_01:Oh no. Who did you think Troy Bolton was? I thought Troy Bolton was a guy from um from Africa who got into the Olympics in the swim team because he was the only person. And that could swim in this no? No. Okay.
SPEAKER_04:Troy Bolton is uh a character. Not Zac Ephron. Zach Ephron. Okay. Portrayed by Zach Ephron in three movies. All right. Famously, Zac Ephron, not African. But yeah.
SPEAKER_01:He's Jewish.
SPEAKER_04:Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. With a name like Ephron.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Um, what how did we get there? Uh, because there was a character was like a character in the Talmud who was a gladiator who converted to Judaism and became a big rabbi. So it's like the opposite of what you said. Like not only can Jews be really strong and smart, but Jews can take really strong people and turn them into little nerds who become rabbis.
SPEAKER_01:Amazing. Thank you for that other gift. You're welcome. Two for the price of one. So where were we?
SPEAKER_04:I don't know, where were we?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_04:70 CE, temples destroyed, Talmudic rabbis, blah blah blah. Okay. So yeah, so a bunch of Jews get sent into slavery. And then there's like different, again, when we're talking Jewish history, you have to realize that like a lot of it is like Jewish culture that has been transposed through Talmud, which is like a religious history, which isn't necessarily historically robust, like academically, right? Because it's the Talmud. It's not meant for history, it's meant for um religious and cultural practice being transported and transmitted. But also we have some historical accounts. And so like what I do say I say take with a grain of salt historically. But the general story is that like eventually people start moving out of the land. Either a lot of people believe that the Romans just eventually like exile everyone out of the land. Um, but a lot of people also believe that like what happens is that you've got what used to be a really rich land that is stripped of its resources and it's stripped of its opportunity, and it's hard to make money and it's hard to live, and it makes you really sad because you're oppressed. And so you leave to find a better opportunity in life, right? Um, and so everyone starts sort of like leaving at a certain point. I don't exactly know when. Um but if we take a step back, at the same time, in like, let's say, like after the destruction of the temple, what happens is that um some rabbis stay in Israel and some go to Babylonia, if you remember, where there's an existing Jewish community. Yeah. And they set up a second center of Jewish religious life, an academic Jewish life. Um, and so we've got all of a sudden two centers of Jewish thought, right? It's kind of like if you think about it in today's terms, like what are the two epicenters of Jewish culture?
SPEAKER_01:If you had to You mean geographically? Like today, yeah. Geographically one in Israel and one in New York. Fantastic, right? And that's exactly right.
SPEAKER_04:Where there's two really big Jewish communities and they have wildly different cultures. Yeah. And they practice Judaism maybe a di a bit differently, depending on the culture around them. So you had that back in the day, obviously they're a bit closer together because it's Babylonia and the land of Israel. Um, and they clash a little bit, but they're like, you know, they're taking questions where if you have a religious question to ask, you can answer the rabbis. And if we're talking again about the Talmud, we actually have two Talmuds, which is the Jerusalem Talmud, which is written in the land of Israel. And we also have the Babylonian Talmud, which is written in in the land of Babylon, which is in the Persian Empire.
SPEAKER_01:For our viewers and listeners who don't know what Talmud is, can you in like a few sentences try and just a few sentences?
SPEAKER_04:Um the Talmud is a written collection and compendium of oral tradition of the Torah. So maybe we can have an episode on like a Jewish bookshelf and of like unpacking all of those things. But essentially, the rabbis discussed the Torah for like hundreds of years, and over time it was written down and compiled into a very long, um, sometimes esoteric, roundabout kind of like nothing is straightforward or makes sense, but like to unpack it, you get the blueprints of like a religious Jewish life. And then also Jewish history and characters and morals and things like that.
SPEAKER_03:Brilliant.
SPEAKER_04:Okay. So we have two of two of those. One written sort of based on the teachings of the rabbis in the land of Israel, one written by like these Babylonian rabbis. Um and then if you have a question as Tammy living in, you know, I don't know, your family decided to go to Greece. You can write into the rabbis who live, you know, at a certain point it kind of all shifts into Babylon. So you can write to those rabbis when you have a question, or your rabbi can write to them and you get an answer back.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_04:Right? But then again, if you're imagining the map, do I have a map here? Fantastic. Oh. Zoom in on that, fellas. Okay. Okay. Um, if you imagine, right, if you're leaving the land of Israel by boat, you're just sailing across the Mediterranean. I only realized this, by the way, like last year. Like, like I suckered geography and I looked at the map the first time. But if you get on a boat from like that land, yeah, and you just sail pretty much straight, you hit Sicily. You cross Sicily or you go around it, and you keep sailing, and you just hit Spain.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:Right? Spain is like a Mediterranean country, essentially.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Um, and then you've got all these countries on the side, right? So you've got Italy, and you've got like, I don't know what else there is, like under France, whatever.
SPEAKER_01:So Monaco, I'm pretty sure. Sure.
SPEAKER_04:And then you've got like the north of Africa as well. Yes. So you've got all of these Jews living like in all of those places, right? Very famously, like Spanish Jewry and the Inquisition eventually. Yes. But when you leave, like people start spreading out far and wide.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:They also go the other direction, away from the scene. They go into like the Middle East. They're in Iraq and Yemen and Iran and whatever other countries are around there, like pretty much everywhere. Um, and you start spreading out. It gets harder and harder to write letters because you're going further and further away. Right. And so all of a sudden, and like again, this is a process that happens over a really long time. Yeah. Like hundreds of years, but you start setting up, like all of a sudden, your rabbis are like they don't need to write home because they know enough. They're really learned. Right. It's not just any like schmuck off the street. Okay. Um, and there's still a lot, don't get me wrong, there's still a lot of communication between all of these different groups, right? And like all of these communities are kind of talking to each other. We've got really interesting proof of that now, historically, and like sort of archaeologically. Um, we've got proof of Yiddish being seen in like in Egypt, in medieval Egypt, which means that those communities are talking to each other. Wow. But what happens, and this is what I think is super interesting, is that you go from the Middle East, right, from Israel, and you crash land in France, and the people around you are dressing differently than you used to. And like as a Jewish person, you know that you have to fit in sort of where you are, but also the climate's different because if you crash land in, say, and then travel up to Poland, it's gonna be a lot colder. So you have to start dressing differently. Yes. The food that you have access to, kosher food, is gonna be different. So all of a sudden, your recipes start looking a bit different, and you start incorporating what's happening in the countries around you. So maybe your chalat doesn't look like pitta anymore, but you see Polish people braiding it, so that that looks pretty cool and it looks fancy. So now I want my Shabbat chala to look like that, right?
SPEAKER_01:Are you suggesting that chala used to be pita?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I would say so. Okay. Right? Or or whatever, like, okay, separate point altogether, right? The act of chala is that you're supposed to take a portion of the dough away while you're baking it before you braid it or before you bake it, and you give that as a donation. It used to be to like the priestly class. So now what you do if you're religious, you're making your khala, you take away slight like a small piece called hafrisha chala, like you separate the khala, um, and you say a bracha, a blessing, and you burn it in the bottom of your oven. Because you can't you're not giving it to anyone, but like you're designating that it's like you're still doing the symbolic. It's symbolic. So my khala that I make can look like anything technically, as long as I'm doing the act of separating, like the ritual part of it is like that separation, that blessing. So it can look like anything, right? And culturally, if you're in the Middle East, most of their bread is flat. Yeah. Right. And so, like, which is to all say that like as they're moving into these different places and it's natural to take on parts of the culture around you, that's why our food looks different. Right. But also if they're dealing with different cultural issues, um, and also you're away from a centralized, like, let's say, database or like brains trust of rabbis, then these rabbis who are in different parts of the world are making their own decisions, they're gonna start looking slightly different. So your community in I don't want to like typecast you, but your community in Poland, and the decisions that your rabbis are making are gonna look really different to, let's say, my wife's family's community who are in Iraq, and their rabbis are making different choices as well. And they've got access to chickpeas. Yeah. And they've got access to, I don't know, like flavors. Flav flavor. Cardamom. Like again, like the silk root opens up, and you've got like a lot of Iraqi Jews go to India and they bring back like this mango chutney called umba, but like so things like when you're in different places, again, their roots are the same, I would say, like laws and halakot, right? Your roots are in the same books and people, but it's natural, right? If you live with your cousins in one place, or like with your family one place, and then your cousins live, and they're your blood family, but they live in a different country, your lives look really different. Yeah. And your culture, your family culture looks really different. So you have to apply that on like a big scale. Yeah, absolutely. So that's kind of how Jews got to all different places and started practicing different things, I would say, the short answer.
SPEAKER_01:So, but so some you did you get into the ones that were slaves?
SPEAKER_04:Oh, yeah. So some of them get freed, and they like there's really ancient communities um in Italy and Rome, like Jewish community. At one point, the biggest Jewish community in the world was in Greece in a place called um Salonica. Uh Thessaloniki. Yeah, so Jews called it Salonica. Yeah. Um, yeah, huge place. But like, and then it kind of, you know, for different reasons, those communities falter. Um, although at the time it's through persecution. Yes. Right. So Spain, like we said, had like a bustling community. Yeah. There was a golden age of Spain where like sort of Jews were free to do literally whatever they wanted, and they were in the government and they were really wealthy, but also they were making art and culture. And then the Inquisition happened. Yeah, right. That's sort of like the you know, the the Tomork quote, like, uh again, becomes the refrain of Jewish history because like you're in a good place and you're prospering, and then there's lots of different reasons, historical and otherwise, that oppression starts and you get kicked out of that place. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um it's even happening now. My ex's family are all in Istanbul. Right. They got there because they were Spanish Jews. Yeah. Inquisition. And now things aren't looking so great. Their Jewish community is dwindling. Yeah. Again. Again. Exactly. Literally. Shout out to my ex's family in Istanbul. I know some of you are secretly still listening to my podcasts.
SPEAKER_04:I have so many things to say. Number one, I didn't know we could just do random shout outs that we wanted to. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:We can.
SPEAKER_04:Okay. Number two, I don't know how to ask this nicely. Maybe you can cut this out.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Did you marry your ex for the diversity points? Yes. Okay, cool. 100%. I want to be Turkish, so I'm going to marry someone with Istanbul family.
SPEAKER_01:No, I knew that I wanted to reproduce. Uh-huh. And so I was like, so my kids are quarter safari, quarter misrahi, and then 50% Ashkenazi. And I was like, I want to make beautiful children. Like, they will be cuckoo bananas, as you would say. Yeah, I wouldn't say that. They will be Ning.
SPEAKER_04:I wouldn't say that about your kids. Okay. Cuckoo bananas is just a phrase that I use a lot. Alright. I've picked up on that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Look, we're going okay for time. We're all it's almost time to wrap up. But before we wrap up.
SPEAKER_04:Do you have any questions about history?
SPEAKER_01:So much, but I think we should keep it for another episode. I think we can circle back to it. Circle back, you know. Um but it is we have other stuff to talk about. Oh, do we still with this? On this topic? Yeah, this stuff. I was gonna say before we go. Before we go. Alright, cool. Um so before we go, we have a little segment. Yeah, we never named it. We never named it. I I was trying to empower you to name it. I don't pick up on on hints and suggestions.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, so I need to be direct and say if you need something done, you just tell me that it needs to be done. Okay. Otherwise, I'm like, you're being weird, not asking.
SPEAKER_01:Alright. That's good. We're still getting to know each other. I just didn't want to be too controlling. My boss tells me that I have oppositional defiance disorder. Um I'm looking at Shoshana's wife, Sky. She's sitting and she's just nodding. Yep. I did pick up on a bit of that. Don't as she whips out her water bottle. I'm so they should do ASMR Torah. What do you mean they? We.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. So yeah, anyway, so I think I maybe do have a touch of ODD. And so when someone's like, maybe you would like to name this, I'm like, maybe you should ask me directly or like shut the heck up.
SPEAKER_01:All right. Do you want to name it? Are you happy for me to name it?
SPEAKER_04:I think we should like let it go nameless for a little bit. Okay. And I think we should like think like have something like like organic that crops up. Okay. Or if enough people listen to this, they can write in with suggestions. Or would we crowdsource thought?
SPEAKER_01:I love that idea. I was actually going to offer that, but again, I didn't want to be too controlling and I I'm very laid back. Okay. Except for the ODD. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So you can you can like do whatever you want it to be.
SPEAKER_01:All right, I'll describe the segment. Yeah, describe it. The segment is we collate and listeners and viewers can send in the most cooked thing that they have seen on a Facebook group, a Jewish Facebook group from whatever city they're in, whatever suburb, has to be of Jewish flavor, the group, not the not the question necessarily. So I don't know, you're probably too young to have ever watched free to air television, but then you're never. I think that's an international show. Yeah, well 30 years old and a half, and you and yet your jeans came to be because you saw a 16-year-old boy wearing them. I think that's just being, you know, resourceful. Okay. So I was thinking we could call this segment for now until we get a better name, Shame or No Shame. It's pretty good. All right, thank you. Shoshata Gottliebaka just said it's pretty good. Um, so this is where we read some of the craziest shit we've seen on VMOS cuckoo bananas. No, so I'm not allowed to describe something as cuckoo bananas.
SPEAKER_04:No, you can, but the way that you said it before suggested that I would say that your children specifically are cuckoo banana pants. Okay. It's because you said, as you would say, my kids are cuckoo banana pants. I would not say I don't know them. Oh, okay, I understand.
SPEAKER_01:I just thought I wasn't allowed to use that as an adjective. Like I don't own words. Okay. You can say whatever you want.
SPEAKER_03:Shoshon of Godlike, I can say I can say whatever I want.
SPEAKER_01:Alright, so this comes from. This post comes from Are we naming the groups? I think we might get in trouble. No. Okay. We shouldn't name the group. I wasn't gonna name the person, I was just gonna name the group.
SPEAKER_04:I think you I think you should say where geographically this group is located. Right, you're right. But don't say the specific, mostly because we will get kicked out of those groups. Yes, you're right. And I can't afford to have that. No, okay.
SPEAKER_01:So this came from a Facebook group in Victoria, Australia. And it was sent to me by a friend who thought it was so funny and that I would appreciate it. Um I saw this organically, by the way. Like it came up on my Facebook feed because I've been in this group. All right, can you please read the post? Yes.
SPEAKER_04:I'm not gonna put on a voice because I don't have an advanced diploma in acting. Okay. So I'm just gonna read it like it's me saying it. Okay. Hi all. My wife is looking for a laborer to dig dirt out of our backyard so that she can waste money on a garden. When she asked me to do it, she quickly found out that she married a mouse rather than a man. If you are a laborer and think you are up to this tough challenge, please let me know so she can finally stop nagging me about it. Two exclamation points. And that so, so good, but not as good as the comment.
SPEAKER_01:Do you want to be anonymous member three two four? I really do. Okay. Anonymous member 324 writes, judging from the tone of your post, she's likely looking to outsource a few other things as well. Ellipses.
SPEAKER_04:And then my guy responds, your comment has a lot of credibility, considering you don't even share your name. Well done. It is funny.
SPEAKER_01:Do you know how hard I tried to find wife of original poster? It's really funny. Just to check in, just to make sure she's okay.
SPEAKER_04:I think the really depressing part of this segment is that like this is not out of the ordinary for most middle-aged men in Facebook groups who are crowdsourcing um landscapers for their garden. Um, and I think that like most people do, in fact, talk like this about their wives, both to their wives' face and behind their backs. Um any middle-aged women, if you need help escaping your less than stellar husbands, maybe we can have that as our next like podcast, season three. You know where to find us. We don't even know if this season's gonna go.
SPEAKER_01:We're gonna get renewed and we're gonna change it again. This is gonna be the Jin Dependent's longest running podcast.
SPEAKER_04:Ah, yes, the gin dependent gem, if you will. Anyway, I think that can be like like like like people call in and ask us like for advice. Brilliant. Slash like avenues for escaping their husbands who can't even garden. We'll have to change and referring to yourself as a mouse rather than a man, you know what mice can do? Dig holes.
SPEAKER_01:And yes, just like that, we lose all of our middle-aged men. Men all one of them, your father probably. Listenership. My dad does not. Listen to the podcast. Okay, my name is. He's not middle-aged. And we we have a few middle-aged feminists that listen to this show.
SPEAKER_04:Feminists won't be off put by this conversation because feminists are real men.
SPEAKER_01:And on that note, it's time for our outro. That's it for today's show. You've been watching slash listening to.
SPEAKER_04:Ashamed to admit. I don't have an advanced diploma, okay?
SPEAKER_01:With Tammy Sussman and me, Shoshana Gottlieb Becker. This episode was recorded at Storytellers Australia and is brought to you by the Jin Dependent, otherwise known as the Jewish Independent. You're too scared. You had to say the full name. The vocalist in our theme song is Sara Yeel. More credits in the show notes. If you enjoyed this episode, share it around and give it a positive review. Thank you so much, and see you next week. Slack. Alright. Up top. I think so. Nailed it.