Lilith, Judith, Maimonides - who were these divas?

Maimonides, Yehudit, Lilith. You know these divas by name but you’ve forgotten what they did. Tami and Shoshana are here for you once again with a breakdown. Plus, a post in a Jewish Facebook group that made Shoshana lose her mind. 

This episode was filmed and edited by Alleyway productions 

Watch it on YouTube

The vocalist in the theme song is Sara Yael 

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Transcript

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Welcome And Episode Setup

SPEAKER_00 0:11

We'll open up the books. The art will open up your cynical heart. Okay, that's mostly true. A shame to admit.

SPEAKER_02 0:30

A shame to ask. It's everything you didn't get in Jewish studies class.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Hello. Hey. And welcome back to Ashame to Admit. I'm Tammy Sussman. I am Shoshana Gottlieb Bepper. Rumbum, Maimonides, Rashi, Lilith. Do these names sound familiar to you? If they do, it's probably because you weren't building a shrine for the boy in the back row in Jewish studies class who you'd eventually lose your virginity to.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

Or maybe That is not my experience.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Or maybe you didn't go to Jewish school at all and you've got no fucking idea about who I am.

SPEAKER_02 1:12

Yeah. Alright. Um, well it's fine. We're gonna cover some of those people today because they're very important. Um I'm not gonna say Jewish people. Technically, Lilith, if she were a person, were like was predates Judaism kind of concept. Ah but there are people who are central to Jewish culture, thought, um, identity, world, etc. etc. etc.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

All right.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

Um, do you have questions? Should we just jump right in? You choose who we start with. All right.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Uh I think we should start with um well, I'll I'll show you the list of people who, like, because these names have been requested by our followers on Instagram. So we asked them, yeah, who do you if we said hypothetically, if there was a podcast which was basically everything you didn't get in Jewish studies class, what ideas, concepts, or people would you want us to explain? Yeah. And some people wrote um, this is the list. This isn't the extensive list, this is a snapshot of the list because this is all we've got time for today. So this will definitely be But we don't even have time for these. It's true. Yeah. So there's Rumbum, there's Maimonides, there's Lilith quote, someone wrote, Who's this diva? I love it. There's Yehudit and

Who’s Who: Rambam, Rashi, Lilith

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Rushi.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

Okay, so already fantastic news. Rumbum and Maimonides, same person. Really? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Such different names. So Maimonides um is like the Latinized English, it means son of Maimon. Oh. Because Maimon is his dad. Okay. Rumbum, like many and Rushi as well, Rumbum and Rushi are both acronyms for their actual name. So Rumbum means um Rabbi Moshe Ben Maimon, Moses the son of Maimon. Amazing. And then you shorten it to Rumbum. Um, so Rumbam Maimon, it's just it's a Hebrew name and an and an English name. Okay. You know, like when you name your son Ethan, but then in in Hebrew he's like Lamo. Yeah. I'm pretty sure Ethan is Etan. It is, but then people do this thing where like they'll give their kid an English biblical name, and then the Hebrew name is like Simchamoshe David. Okay. You know what I mean? And then his English name is Nathan. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

I do know what you mean. Before you tell me about Rumbum, formerly known as Maimonides. When you hear the name Rum Bum, do you also go rum bum bum bum? No.

SPEAKER_02 3:48

Um I think rum bum, thank you, mum.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

So sorry to the rumbum fanatics out there.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Hey, I'm one of those. Okay. So not really. I think his life is fascinating. Go on. Um, so I'm a fan of his life rather than like his work. His work's pretty important too. Okay. So you want to you want to know about him? Yeah. Where should I start? From the beginning.

Rambam’s Origins And Spain’s Turmoil

SPEAKER_02 4:13

Okay, so he's born in Spain in like the 1130s-ish. Um Safadi. Yep. Great. Yeah. Um, and he grows up, his dad is like important in the community. He's uh like he's on the bait in, right? He's like a Jewish judge. Um, they leave Spa and he grows up like really smart. All of these rabbis always have stories of like he learned all of Talmud by the age of six. Like, but I don't know, like he was always really smart, he was always in school. But the thing with Rumbum that's really interesting is that he was exposed to a huge range of like philosophy and scientific thought outside of the Jewish realm. Um, and you see that come up like later in his work. Um, and it also makes sense in Spain, like it's the end of the golden age, but there's like it's a huge time of like intellectual growth within the Jewish people and like cultural growth. So he is learning like Greek philosophy and you know, science and maths and all of these things alongside his Jewish studies, and that'll be important later, I promise. Um his family flees Spain because there's a change in caliphate, and so the new caliphate that comes in, a caliphate is just like a Muslim, a caliph is a Muslim ruler. Okay. Spain at the time is predominantly Muslim. Um, there's a change in leadership who are less kind to Jews, and they revoke the dhimmi status, meaning that you can't live as a protected minority anymore, and so you either have to convert or you have to leave.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:37

So they leave. Um and they go to a couple different places, but they eventually settle in Egypt. Um, I'm gonna look up I'm I'm so bad with years. Okay, so I always write them down so that I can be accurate. Yeah, they arrive in Egypt by 1168.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

Um great year, yeah, apparently. Wasn't there, couldn't I very young. Um what's interesting, like now that he's in Egypt, he makes trips to like the land of Israel during the times of the Crusaders. Uh-huh. Um, he visits the Temple Mount, like he gets the lay of the land, but he settles in Egypt. Um and he rises to prominence in his community because he again he's very smart. Um, we have a lot of writing from the Rumba, he's very well written. Um, and he he helps negotiate on behalf of Jewish people taken hostage by the crusaders. And so he becomes really well known in his community um because of this. He also at this time is writing lots of commentary, so he's like a really well-known Jewish scholar in general, um, and he's building up his professional, you know, reputation. Yeah. What's really interesting about Rum Bum, I think, is that he like Jewish people like don't change, right? He is a rabbi, that's his job. Yeah. They don't make a lot of money. Right. Still back then they didn't make a lot of money. Right. So his brother, David, yeah, um, David, yeah, he supports Rum Bum. Right. And like the whole family, right? So like he has a family of his own, Rumbum's family, um, his dad, he's a businessman, and so he goes to work as a nice Jewish businessman while his brother is a rabbi and learns and writes Torah. Okay. Um, and then it's it's really sad, but like he goes, he takes the family's fortune, he wants to do trade overseas, and he gets on a boat and the boat sinks. Um, and it's really sad, but also like it's really beautiful. Again, so we have a lot that's been written by the rum bum because of something called the Chairo Ganiza, which we're gonna do an episode on because it's my favorite thing in the Jewish world. Yes. I did a Limwood session on it, which is why you're talking like that. Yeah. I love the Chairo Ganisa. But basically, we have this like trove of writing, and one of the things we have from that is this beautiful letter that he wrote about the demise of his brother and about how heartbroken that he's always been by that. And it's not just his brother, it's his friend, it's like, you know, his confidant, almost like a child to him. Yeah. Like grew up on his lap, he writes. Um, but his brother not only died, but like lost the family fortune. Oh my god. And so he has to get another job, right? He can't just be a rabbi anymore. He needs to earn money, he needs to step up, take care of the family, like David always did. So, what do you do? You're a prominent rabbi. You need a job.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 8:25

What do you do?

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Well, he was a genius, so he could do anything, right? Yeah. Um, I think he becomes he makes memes, he makes, he becomes a satirist, he becomes a stand-up comedian. Incorrect. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

What does he do? You

Exile To Egypt And Community Rise

SPEAKER_02 8:45

are you're clearly a very like one half of like Jewish culture. Like Jews are funny, like do that. Yes. He goes the other path of Jewish culture, he becomes a doctor.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Of course. Of course.

SPEAKER_02 8:54

Yeah, yeah. And so he's um a doctor and also a rabbi. And because he's a genius and because like he sets high standards for himself, he's the best of both of those things. So he quickly becomes like um, like his name's Saladin, he's like the Sultan at the time. He becomes like the the king's physician. Wow. And also he's a community rabbi, and also he's like in charge of the Egyptian community of Jews. Is he married? Yeah, he's already married at this point. He has a, I don't know how many kids he has. He has at least one son.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

How many wives does he have?

SPEAKER_02 9:27

No idea, could not tell you.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Okay, but is that's a valid question, right? Because in those days we could have more than one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

Um, but yeah, so he's like a top doctor, he's a top rabbi. Um, and there's lots of really interesting stories. Again, like these sort of legend-building stories about him, but like he would um spend all day at the palace treating, you know, the Sultan and his family and all of that. And then he would come home and he would treat people like pro bono, and he'd have all of these people in his home who needed help, and he would spend his whole evening helping them as well. And then somewhere on the side, he was also like writing Torah, you know, and like writing like some of the most important influential Jewish works that we still have and rely on today. Such as um, so I would say like his main three, and again, my opinion, but I think his main three works are um something called The Guide for the Perplexed, More Navuchim, which is like a philosophical, um, like intellectual work. So it's about Jewish philosophy, and it tries to reconcile like Aristotelianism of like logic and rational thought and thinking with Jewish thought and thinking, and like how do miracles happen in the Torah? And like he's kind of one of the first major um figures who talks about or who recognizes um certain biblical stories as being metaphor, right? Um, and who recognizes like when we talk about God in human terms, that is metaphor. Um because again, he's a rational thinker, and that's when you see he's been studying like Greek philosophy, ancient Greek philosophy since he was a young child. It's clearly influenced how he sees and views the world, and so he tries to marry those things. It was incredibly um controversial. It was banned by different rabbis, it was burnt by a bunch of French rabbis because of how like um heretical they saw it as. Wow. Um, so that's one, I think, one of his most important works. Um arguably the number one most important work is something called the Mishnah Torah, um, which takes the Talmud and takes um all of like response written about the Talmud after the Talmud is like sort of codified and sealed off. And he organizes it and takes the like the main message away. So as we know, the Talmud is like a really big long story, it's all these conversations, it's not just law, but there's also you know stories in there, moral, other whatever. And he takes all of that and he pulls out the main, like, like if it's got all of these opinions, he takes the one that we follow and he puts it in.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 12:07

And he also bases it on like um, like uh what other rabbis have said since since the Talmud. He also like he orders it. So even though we have a section on Shabbat in the Talmud, they might also mention a law about Shabbat over here in relation to something else because it just comes up, right? Because the Talmud's big. Yeah, and he organizes it and he makes it so, and this is what I think is really interesting. He wants Judaism to be easy to follow for the everyday person. And so he makes something like the Talmud accessible for

Tragedy, Medicine, And Leadership

SPEAKER_02 12:40

people who don't have time to go searching for it. Um, and he sort of standardizes for his community and for all of the communities connected to him, because again, he's a really great rabbi. Um he standardizes practice for that time period, saying, like, there's all of these opinions in the Talmud. Um, here, you know, like here's what we follow. Okay. And he makes it really easy. Um, and that's not the first, I'm sorry, it's not the only work that does that. There are other ones that come along later as well. But he's like the first who does it. He it's like a codex of Jewish law. What a guy. Huge guy. Yeah. Okay. Sounds like you've got a lot of respect for him. I love him. I think he's so interesting. Um, yeah, he is, yeah, I don't know, like it's just like I want to roast him, but I feel bad.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

He's too good. As someone who has been married to a man, though, I have a feeling that maybe he was like so busy at work, yeah, you know, doing stuff pro bono, which is all good and well, but like when there's kids and she needs a break and she wants to go to the Egyptian version of Pilates, she just, you know.

SPEAKER_02 13:47

She just wants him home.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:49

Again, look, very fair. Um, could not tell you about his um his personal life. Okay. Um, yeah. So he's a super interesting guy. Love him.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Great. I'd love to spend more time on him, but we've got to move on. Oh no, okay. Who do you want to move on to? Okay, I think it was Lil Um Lilith, who this diva.

SPEAKER_02 14:07

Who this diva. Okay. Lilith is super interesting because Lilith is an example of a character who does not appear in the Torah. Okay. People think she does. Um, she is an example of Midrash, which is rabbinic storytelling, um, that has become almost canon in sort of Jewish thought. And what's really in more secular Jewish thought, right? Like she's become really relevant to contemporary feminist Judaism as an example of a woman who pushes back and who doesn't just fall into line. Um, but she doesn't actually appear in the Torah itself. Um, how do we know about her? Fantastic question. So I'm gonna tell you who she is first. Okay. Okay. Allegedly, allegedly, she is um Adam's first wife. Ah. So of Adam of Adam and Eve fame. Yeah. She's his first wife. Um, she is built, and again, there's different versions of story. Okay. Um the word Lilith is mentioned in other parts of the Tanakh. Um, and Jewish thought describes this thing as like a demon, a female demon. Um, that's Rashi, who we might, I don't think we'll have time to get to Rashi based on what time we have. No. Um, he's also a commentator. He says she's a female demon, other commentators say it's like some kind of night animal. Lilith, Lilith, Lila, night, like and so like Rashi's like she's a nighttime demon. Okay. Someone else named Ibn Ezra says she's an owl. Okay. Like she's a barn owl. Um, because she's listed in another like list of other animals. Um, and that kind of is taken in the Talmud, mention

The Big Three Works Of Rambam

SPEAKER_02 15:45

of her as a demon. And then we have this text from like medieval Judaism, I'm pretty sure, um, called um the alphabet of Ben Sira. And this is kind of where she explodes in legend beyond just like mentions of this demon named Lilith. And the um the alphabet of Ben Sirah gives like this huge story about who she is, um, which is that she was created by God um alongside Adam using the same method. God forms Lilith from the ground, the same way that God formed Adam out of like dirt and dust, whatever. And then when she comes to life, she Adam tries to get her to do something, and she's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, we are equal because we were created in the same way. Like, what are you talking about? You can't make me do things. So they butt heads immediately. She like flies away, right? Again, this is what Ben Serah says. She like flies away. Um, and then God sends angels after her to bring her back, and she's like, No, instead, I'm gonna kill infants. And they're like, Okay, and then um she's like, but I won't kill infants if you like protect them with this weird amulet thing, and we're like, oh okay. It's really weird, but basically, she's uh an infant-killing demon. Um that the feminists have reclaimed, have reclaimed in the sense of like Adam's first wife who pushed back and said no to the patriarchy. But it's also why Eve, according to this version of the story, it's why Eve um was created from Adam's rib, because then she is lesser than him and made of him rather than being on equal footing. Okay. And so feminists kind of take the iconography of her being equal.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

It's a weird story. Again, what I think has happened, and this happens a lot with Jewish history, my opinion, not saying this is factual, there's mention of um this demon named Lilith in the Talmud in a couple of places. Um whether it's child-eating demon, I'm not really sure, I can't remember. Um, we've got lots of examples of like um like just post-ancient, like early medieval like amulet bowls that feature Lilith as a demon and are like inscribed with protections of children. Right. Um, and we coupled those things together. And then we like bore out of it also, again, separately, there's stories of Adam having a first wife that don't go into all the details. And somewhere along the way, this guy who wrote the Ben Sira, like has coupled those things together to create one cohesive character. Okay. Because again, that happens a lot of like we have lots of these different ideas, we've existed for a really long time, we like things to fit neatly as like a cohesive story. Okay. Um, so that's Lilith in a large nutshell.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

So this diva, that's it, Lilith. But no one's written about why they broke up, um, or was it just obvious? Adam and Lilith is the demon.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

Because she was a I mean, if I were Adam, I'd say it's because she's a bitch, right? Because she wouldn't listen to him because that's what he wanted out of a wife.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

But then Lilith would have her side of the story, and somewhere in the middle is the truth. Yes. Okay. Yes. All right. So who this diva? That's that diva. Yep. Moving along to Yehudits.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Yes. Also not from the Tanakh. Okay. This one, because again, I'm very um, I'm very pedantic about my research beforehand. Because I, and this is my thing, right? I know quite a bit about Judaism, but I always doubt what I know and my knowledge. And so I'm always like, is that right? Little Google, little like chababad.org, Wikipedia action, making sure I know what I know.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Um I respect that.

SPEAKER_02 19:28

Yeah, because Judith in my head, and for a lot of people, because this is true, is associated with Khanukkah. Yeah. So your immediate thought would be, oh, Hanukkah, it takes place during the time of the Hanukkah story. Uh-huh. I start reading the book of Judith, because again, I'm very thorough with my research, mentions the Book Admetsa, which is the Assyrian like king, the Babylonians who came before the Greeks. And so already it's really interesting because the book of Judith, by a lot of academics, is seen as maybe the first like historical novel, didn't actually happen, but was written because it's full of these anachronisms, there's a historical fact.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

What does an anachronism sorry?

SPEAKER_02 20:04

Anachronism is something that happens like within a story, but that like doesn't take place. Like if I'm writing a story in the 50s, set in the 50s, and then a character pulls out a mobile phone. Right. A mobile, it's like things don't line up with where it's set in that time period. Um, but either way, whether it happened or not, historical fact, etc. etc.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

Before we go on, I'm ashamed to admit I'd never heard of Yehudit, also known as Judith,

Enter Lilith: Myth Vs Text

SPEAKER_01 20:30

until around a year ago when you moderated a panel which was like From Yentl to Yehudit. Yeah. And I said, who this diva.

SPEAKER_02 20:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

And you did say at that time, it's like the Hanukkah story.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

Because again, associated with the Hanukkah now.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

Yes. And it's for lots of different reasons, right? I think in medieval times someone rewrote the book of Judith to be about Hanukkah, but the original versions are about this Assyrian time period instead. Um also because some um some academics place it as being written in that period, but they're not writing like with the real names of the people at that time, lest they get in trouble. So they're using older names from a different time period. Like there's lots of different theories about it.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

Um, but the story, I'll just go through the story because I said a lot about her, but I've not said who she is, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:25

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_02 21:26

So um Judith, um, or the book of Judith, which again is not in the Tanakh, it's like these extra books that didn't get included. Um, it is set during the an Assyrian siege of um Israel. There is a general named Holofernus, and he is in charge of the siege. He sets up camp near her town. The local Jewish or Israelite leaders um are not willing to fight the way that Judith wants them to fight. She thinks they don't believe in God the way she could. Oh, okay. So she's described as super pious. So, like a deep belief in God, a widow, and also really hot. No, like have any direct quotes? No, like it talks about how graceful and beautiful and rich and like gorgeous she is. Wow. And she is a widow, which means that for a long time she's been dressed in black and ripped clothing and like sort of been playing it down. But then she takes matters into her own hands to defeat Holofurnace. Yeah. So the first thing she does is makeover. And she like sheds her black widow's clothing and she puts on makeup and perfume. Exactly. It's like one of those like rom com like um scenes of like makeover scene. Exactly. Um and she makes herself up and she leaves her town and she goes to this sort of Assyrian fortress and she befriends Holofernus and he is besotted with her, like he like really likes her, and there's this back and forth where she's friends with them, and she makes it like she establishes a routine of being able to leave the town and come as come and go as she pleases because she's friends with him. And then eventually she like invites him to this meal, and this might sound familiar in terms of like inviting someone to a meal.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:08

Um she's the meal, is what you're saying. Well, I'm I compare it to um to Puriam, right? Yeah with Esther and Um and Haman. Right. Um right, she invites them both to this meal to like sort of use her womanly wiles to get her away. Judith invites Holofernas to this meal. She eats her own food because his food's not kosher. She feeds him cheese, he gets thirsty, she gives him some of her wine that she brings. Very specific that she's feeding him cheese. Well, it talks about cheese, yeah. So like he's eating cheese, cheese makes you thirsty, she fours him with wine, um, he gets drunk, all of his servants leave because the party's been going on for ages. Um, and when he is asleep, she takes his own sword and cuts his head off.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

Are you talking about Judith and Holophanes? Yeah, Holophonus. Say it again.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

Holophonus. I call it Holophanes. Yeah, but that's the thing. You'd think he's Greek

Ben Sira’s Tale And Feminist Readings

SPEAKER_02 24:05

when you say Holophanes, but he's not, he's a Syrian. Right. I say holof I could be mispronounced. Yeah. There's lots of paintings. There's lots of like we were when we were in um Europe last year, we were walking through a uh um a museum and there's a sculpture, and a woman's like chopping off someone's head, and Sky's like, I think that's Judith. Yeah. Because it's a very like famous image, and it's been like done iconic. And it's been done in art like dozens of times over. Okay. Um, yeah, so she cuts his head off, she puts his head in a basket, and her mate, she has her maid with her also this whole time.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

Yeah, by the way. Um she's the old woman in the depicted in the painting.

SPEAKER_02 24:43

You'll like her, identify with her. Um, and so the maid carries the basket, but they've got the head, and like no one questions it because they've established they're allowed to come and go as they want. Um, she goes back to the Jewish like town and to the leaders, and she's like, guess what I got? Ta-da! And like shows the head of Holophonus or Holophones, if you want to call him. Holophones. Um, shows the head, and they are like so, I don't know, inspired by her strength and leadership that they then like decide to launch an attack the next day. And on the flip side, um, the Assyrians go to check on their boss, find him headless, and like they freak out because they don't have the leadership. And so then the Jews of that area are able to defeat the Assyrians, and that's the story. Okay. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

Ta-da. Can I tell you why I'm laughing to myself? Yes. How did you describe her in the in three things you described? Widowed, widowed, pious, yeah, hot, hot. I'm imagining that as her hinge profile, and then her main profile picture is holding up this guy's head.

SPEAKER_02 25:43

Like this little selfie. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Okay, I like her.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

Yeah, she's cool.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:48

Um, and like lots of reasons why she could be connected to Hanukkah, which is why I would have mentioned it at the time.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

Number one, she is very clearly like a literary female version of Judah Maccabi. Her name is even Judith. Judah, right, like sort of saving the people in that way. Um, and also because of that, and again in medieval times, these other customs will like spring up. Um, we know that you're supposed to eat oily foods on Hanaka, but some people have the custom of eating like cheesy dairy foods because of the cheese that she fed him. Um, and then also some people have the custom that women specifically shouldn't work during, like while the candles are lit, they should refrain from certain types of work, like it was Shabbat because a woman is so central to this story and is associated with Hanukkah.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

Right.

SPEAKER_02 26:36

Even though historically interesting.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

Okay. Thank you so much for that. I'm ashamed to admit that we've gone over time. And what we'll do is we'll keep Rashi for our next episode that we.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

I love Rashi too, so I don't have as much to say as I do about Rum Bum, but like I've got plenty of.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

We'll come back to Rashi. Yeah. It's time for our segment. We've had some feedback from our listeners and our viewers. They've given us some alternate options. Take a little sip one second. Do it for this segment, which I had originally called shame or no shame. Yeah. Some people have offered up Shame Man. I think that's a nod to the South African Jewish community.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

You said someone said Ochshane.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

Ochshame.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

I think that one's a good one.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

That one's good, but I don't know. Maybe if we've got viewers in Odessa, they don't have South African immigrants there, and then they may not get that. That's true. Um I think we should have like a rotate, like we never settle on a name. Alright. I like that. So we like rotate. Okay. Yeah. Great. I love that offer. I'm gonna accept it. Hooray. Someone else offered shame in the sheddle. That is also a good one. So for today, let's call it Achsheim. Perfect. Today in Achsheim. Today in Achsheim, this post.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

This post made me crazy. I saw this live. I thought I had lost my mind.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

It's from a Facebook

Judith’s Story And Strategy

SPEAKER_01 28:05

group in New South Wales, a Jewish Facebook group. I'm not gonna name the group. We don't name the group. We don't want to get kicked out of the group.

SPEAKER_02 28:13

Please don't kick us out of Jewish Facebook groups.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

Okay. It's it's this is a visual gag. So for our viewers, we will overlay a picture of this post, but for all the people listening while they're washing their cheese off their dishes, you know, when the cheese melts and it's you need to scoop that up.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

Such a specific mental, like I think mental image of who is listening to this podcast. People walking their cats and like 50s housewives with cheese plates.

SPEAKER_01 28:45

Like I was actually imagining a man scraping. Oh, that's me, sorry. Yeah. So sexist again. For them, I'm gonna describe the image. It's a photo of a footpath, and on the footpath, it looks like a bit of cotton string or a twig in the shape of a teardrop.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

Okay. It's also like zoomed in enough that you can see like you can see gravel, right? Like the cement on the footpath, but also like there's like a welcome mat. There is. I'm just trying to paint it with a bit of a twig on the welcome mat?

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 29:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

Okay. And the caption accompanying this says outside church. And saw this. Anonymous number nine seven seven. Is it a worm? The original postesses? Yes. Anonymous number nine seven seven. Right again. No, no, is it a worm? No, hang on. That's just me copy and pasting that twice.

SPEAKER_02 30:06

Like several people were like, why is it like what is the significance of seeing a worm here?

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Okay, a few people said, What is it? Sorry, what am I looking at? And they would always reply, a worm. A worm. A worm. Okay. But then the original poster had to clarify it's a worm in the shape of.

SPEAKER_02 30:26

I can't say it, you have to say it.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

I can't say it either.

SPEAKER_02 30:29

Of a memorial pin, like a ribbon pin.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

Which has been used in very recent memory as a hostage pin to remember the hostages, which is a very serious thing. Yes. I just think that I just think that this is the same. I just think of like this is like the perfect storm, an example of like how much people on Facebook have kind of lost their mind. And like she saw a worm on a footpath and was like the hostages. And no one in the comments knew what she was talking about. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

If she'd opened with that, if she'd opened with, I saw this worm on the footpath outside of church and it reminded me of our hostages, different story. So we're not laughing about that. Let's just be clear. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:23

We also, I was also to say, she posted it so it's an upside down host. Like she should have at least rotated the photo so you can see what it is a bit better.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

I think it's the ambiguity that makes this.

SPEAKER_02 31:36

It's also, is it a worm? And then the response being a yes with no further like explanation besides this is a worm. Yes. Not this is a worm that has reminded me of like our people's plight. Just this is a worm. Correct. My WhatsApp groups had a field day with this. This is a recurring joke in my groups of is it a worm? So someone will just post something vague and someone needs to write back.

SPEAKER_01 32:04

Like, is it a worm is the f I think it needs to enter the lexicon of the Jewish community. Jewish communities around the world. Worm hostage pin is just like otherworldly to me. Okay. So the next time someone in your WhatsApp group

Cheese, Wine, And A Beheading

SPEAKER_01 32:20

posts a picture with no explanation and it's really vague.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

You just say, Is it a worm?

SPEAKER_01 32:25

You it is obligatory to reply, is it a worm?

SPEAKER_02 32:28

Is it a worm? Sublime. Fantastic work, everyone.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

It's time for our outro. We may get cancelled for that. I really hope we don't.

SPEAKER_02 32:38

Four episodes in and cancelled is honestly a better run than I thought we'd have in terms of being cancelled. I'm not gonna lie to you. That is it for our show today. Please don't cancel us.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

You've been watching or listening to Asham to Admit with me, Tammy Sussman, and my wonderful co-host, Shoshana Gottlieb Becker.

SPEAKER_02 32:57

This episode was brought to you by the Jewish Independent. Don't do it! The Jin Dependent. She did it. With Aliway Productions. The vocalist in our theme song is Sarah Yael, and there are more credits in our show notes. She says it's Sarah Yael.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

Oh, I'm so sorry. Genuinely Sarah Yell. If you enjoyed this episode, tell your friends, forward it to everyone you know with the caption This is a worm.

SPEAKER_02 33:25

Hashtag is it aw.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 33:30

That's my lesson.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

Sorry. See you next week.