Slay, Gay, Pray. It's the LGBTQIA+ Special !

It’s Mardi Gras Festival in Sydney, Australia! Your co-hosts, Shoshana and Tami are here for you - asking those “anything gay” questions you’ve been too ashamed to ask. Plus, they discuss what Jewish foods would be best suited to go rainbow to celebrate. 

This episode was filmed and edited by Alleyway Productions 

Watch it on YouTube

The vocalist in the theme song is Sara Yael 

Here’s the article we mentioned, by Gideon Cohen for TJI. 

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Follow Tami and Shoshana on Instagram : @tami_sussman_bits & @jewishmemesonly

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Transcript

Setting The Scene: Sydney Mardi Gras

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hello everyone. It's Tammy here, one half of the Asham to Admit podcast. Shoshanna and I recorded this episode last week in Sydney, Australia. And for those of you who are living overseas, you may not be aware that this month is a Mardi Gram month in Sydney. That's like your pride month equivalent. A few days after we recorded this episode, Shoshana and I learned that after 25 years of annual participation, Sydney's Jewish LGBT, QIA class group, and Dianal wouldn't be joining the parade, citing unprecedented concerns for the safety of the members. As you can imagine, Joshana and I were really disappointed, as were other members of the queer Jewish community in Sydney, Melbourne, and all over Australia, and our allies. If you want to know more about that, Gideon Cohen has written some pages for the Jewish Independent, and we will leave a link in the show notes. But for now, we hope that you enjoy this week's episode. We hope that it makes you feel connected to queer Jewish communities in your hometown abroad. And we hope that it makes you feel proud to be a queer Jew or an ally.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Got dewy Jewy questions. This is it, this is it. Why is wicked simple? How to ask? We'll open up the books, the ark will open up your cynical heart. No such a thing as a dumb question. Okay, that's mostly true. Tammy, I'm Shoshana right here for you. Ashamed to admit.

Mardi Gras Meanings: US Vs Australia

SPEAKER_04 2:00

Ashamed to ask. It's everything you didn't get in Jewish studies class. Hi everyone, welcome to Asham to Admit. I'm Tammy Sussman. I'm Shoshana Gottlieb Becker. And this is our Mardi Gras episode. Sure is. Yeah. Mardi Gras. Which is confusing. Can I tell us? I'll start with the story. Okay. How about that? I'm here for it. Uh when I was 18, I went to seminary in Israel. Hung out with a bunch of Americans. And they're talking about Mardi Gras. And I'm like, yeah, the gay thing. And they go, Shoshana, that's a bit rude. Mardi Gras'n's not gay. There's just beads. And I was like, guys, Mardi Gras's the gay thing. And they're like, I don't know what you're talking about. And there was this whole back and forth until we Googled it. And Mardi Gras in America is actually not a gay thing. What is it? It's it's the New Orleans parade thing. It's completely different.

SPEAKER_02 2:57

I'm pretty sure that's also a gay thing.

SPEAKER_04 2:59

It's not, it's not a gay, it's a it's a religious thing, I'm pretty sure. Can I fact check? Is it too early for a fact check? Fact check. No, do it. Okay, so Mardi Gras means fat Tuesday. That much I know.

SPEAKER_02 3:09

Fat Tuesday.

SPEAKER_04 3:11

Am I teaching you something?

SPEAKER_02 3:12

Yeah, you teach me something every week.

SPEAKER_04 3:14

Okay, so if you type in Mardi Gras America, I I encourage you to play along at home. Everyone, if you're listening to this podcast and driving, stop, start touching your phone. If you're walking your cat, stop, whip out your phone. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so Mardi Gras in America is a religious thing. It coincides with like Lent and Easter. This is the Wikipedia.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 3:42

It's the final day of carnival. So it falls on the day before the beginning of Lent on Ash Wednesday. So um Fat Tuesday, which is Mardira, referring it um to it being the last day of consuming rich fatty foods like red meat in preparation for the Christian fasting season of Lent. There you go. So it's a Christian event, and then I don't know how it happened, but in Australia, Mardi Gras is the gay thing. The gay thing. It's the it's our gay parade, Mardigra Festival.

SPEAKER_02 4:12

Dear listeners and viewers, you came here for the Jewish studies and you got a little bit extra. Yeah. That's true. It is a whole festival that starts in the middle of February and it ends in the end of February. The parade, obviously, that's good. It ends in the end of February.

SPEAKER_03 4:31

Yes.

Game Time: Slay Gay Pray

SPEAKER_02 4:31

With that exclamation point, that parade. And because we're in the spirit of Mardi Gras, the gay one, not the religious one.

SPEAKER_04 4:40

But the Christian one. Yeah. Never the Christian Mardi Gras, only the gay one.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

Sometimes I say keep an open mind. Why not do both? Alright, it's time to play Slay Gay Pray.

SPEAKER_04 4:54

Are you ready? I don't know how to play still. You've never told me how it works.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Good. I did that on purpose. Hooray. Alright. You're gonna think of some Jewish celebrities.

SPEAKER_04 5:06

You're not even providing the the celebrities. I have to think of them myself. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

You have to tell me who is sleigh? Is that what you'd say? Who is sleigh or who slays?

SPEAKER_03 5:17

It can be either.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

Okay. So who slays or who is sleigh? Who you wish was gay?

SPEAKER_03 5:24

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 5:25

And who you would turn into a golden calf and pray to.

SPEAKER_04 5:33

This game works if you give me the celebrities.

SPEAKER_02 5:37

I gave you notice for this. You were supposed to think of people.

SPEAKER_04 5:41

You never told me how the game was gonna work. You said it's good you don't know how this works. And then you never said anything else. And if I said I want to play FMK, I don't say FMK, you pick the people and decide them. Alright. You're right. That's right. All games work. I stuffed it up. So just Google here. Without your phone. Google Jewish celebrity and just give me three.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

This is the first time that I wish that this was like the type of podcast or the type of radio show where people could call in. Call in, yeah. Okay. I could call my mum if you want. Like. I'll tell you who I would choose, and then you can tell me. You tell me okay.

unknown 6:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 6:23

I'm gonna take over how the game works.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Alright.

SPEAKER_04 6:25

You give me three Jewish celebrities, and I will say slay gay prey.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 6:29

Okay. As in slay, uh let's reiterate. Slay, they are slay. Not like I want to kill them, but slay as in they are a cool person. Gay, a clarifying question. Do I want them to be gay because like I want to be with them or because I think them being gay will make them my friend? Yes. Or I think they would suit being a homosexual. Okay. Yes. Okay. And then pray I would turn that person into a golden calf and commit um idol worship unto them.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

Yeah, so body of a calf, but their heads.

SPEAKER_04 7:05

I do want to say, isn't that just what celebritydom is? Celebrity culture is just turning all people with talent into golden calves and worshipping them.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

Very early in the show, and you've already said something profound. Alright, I'm gonna give you three Jewish people. Okay, celebrities, notable people. My MB Alec. Uh-huh. Judge Judy. Oh, the Rebbe.

unknown 7:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:36

Or like the most, like the contemporary Rebbe, like the most religious.

SPEAKER_04 7:41

No, she's not the Rebbe. The Rebbe, like the Laboratory Rebbe. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:45

I'll say it. Rebbe slays.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 7:47

Okay. Um, I don't want to say anything else on that because I will get yelled at.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 7:53

Um Maya Bialik, I will make gay because I want to see her navigate that as part of her identity. Okay. As a religious scientist who is also an actor and is now gay. It's like hat on a hat on a hat. You know what I mean? And then Judge Judy, I think, would be prey.

SPEAKER_02 8:11

Okay. I had the same Judge Judy I would also pray to. Um, I think Mayan Bialik slays because of all the cool shit that she does.

SPEAKER_04 8:22

Don't say the last one though. It's a bit sacrilege.

Is Judaism Homophobic

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Okay, so I don't, I don't, I kind of wish that the most religious person in Australia, like them, like the top, top rabbi, came out. And then I think there'd be a domino effect because then everyone like in those religious communities will think it's okay to be gay, and then they'd make changes and like gay people It's a beautiful, it's a beautiful. I don't think that would happen. Okay. The reason why this topic is in front of mind, one, because it's Mardi Gras month, and two, because a friend of mine recently had to end a relationship because the religious ish person that she was seeing had said some pretty questionable things about homosexuality. He said that it clashed with his Jewish religious beliefs and it gave her the ick.

SPEAKER_04 9:24

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

And so much so that she she ended it, which I think is true allyship. And she wanted to know.

SPEAKER_04 9:34

For those only listening, I just like did a an a solidarity fist to the camera.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

Yeah. Thank you for that. Um, she wanted to know, she said, can you ask Shoshana if he has a leg to stand on when he says that it actually, you know, the Torah, the teachings, the Jewish teachings, they don't like homosexuality so much. So she wanted to know why was there such a Venn diagram between Jewishness and religiosity and homophobia? So I guess the first question I'm bringing to you is is Judaism homophobic?

SPEAKER_04 10:14

It's a great question. Queer phobic. Queer phobic. Okay. A great question, and I would say, how are we defining Judaism and how are we defining phobic of queerness?

SPEAKER_02 10:26

Yeah, so either scared of, I think from the the whole spectrum of like scared of to um completely disgusted by banning it, banning it.

Texts, Acts, And Modesty Norms

SPEAKER_04 10:40

Okay, so I will say that this is a very specific conversation to Orthodox Judaism, right? Because I think we're everyone's very well aware that in the progressive Jewish world in the Mesorti movement, in r in reform, everything kind of to the left of that, um there's plenty there's queer rabbis. Yes, you know what I mean? That I was rabbi like married by a rabbi. Um and so they are more totally fine with it. I think there was a study recently that a high percentage of incoming rabbinical students identify as queer as well. Uh so we have that to look forward to in the near future, in the next few years. Now I'm doing the the the solidarity first. Yeah. Um I do think that again, look, all I can speak from is my perspective. As a person who has grown up in a religious community who is also gay, I find the Sydney Jewish community one of the most accepting Orthodox communities in of all the ones that I've been a part of. And I say orthodox in terms of there's also varying levels of orthodoxy, right? So in America you have more things like open orthodoxy, um, and you have a bigger spectrum of modern orthodoxy as well. And we don't have it in a we're we're very conservative, like small C conservative, not movement conservative, but also the people within that conservative community tend to be more open-minded. And I think that we live in a place, we live next to the beach. We're such a mixed community, we're a mixed bag in terms of you're always interacting with secular people and people who are traditional and not so religious and all things like that, and we're very informed by the Chabad Kirov mentality, Kirov like bringing people into religion, but in order to do that, you have to be certain, a certain amount of open-mindedness. Right. Um so I feel like I want to set the scene by saying that that as a a Jewish person who is in and involved with Orthodox communities to some extent still, and who is um did I say gay already? I lost my train of thought. Yeah. Yeah, I I do feel comfortable in this community. Yeah. Um but at the same time, it's hard because there's a certain level, I think, within the Orthodox world that queer people will never move beyond. And that's because it's it's it's in the Torah that you know. Actually, the Torah doesn't say don't be gay. The Torah says don't do one specific act.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

Which is?

SPEAKER_04 13:16

Which is uh anal sex.

SPEAKER_02 13:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 13:19

Right. And it doesn't say it in those many words, it says do not lie with a man as you would with a woman, right? So firstly we have to differentiate between two things, which is that when the Torah was written, there was no such thing as a homosex, like as identifying as gay, as having it being a part of your identity. It was simply an act that happened all across the ancient world. Um, and so we have to differentiate between those two things. Is it inherently bad to feel a certain way towards members of the same sex? The Torah doesn't say. Torah says don't do a single, a certain thing. Um, and I think that is how most Orthodox people now live their lives, right? Is that I'm not gonna ask questions about your sex life because that's not actually modest. The same way that I'm not gonna go and ask a straight couple if they follow the laws of family purity, right? That's not an appropriate thing to ask someone. I'm also not gonna go up to a gay man and say, hey, how do you have sex? So that I can then like say that you're doing the wrong thing. You know what I mean? No one's however, the kind of way that a more modern Orthodox people are starting to approach it is from the lens of picoach nefesh. Have we heard of this term?

SPEAKER_02 14:36

I've heard of it, but I forget.

SPEAKER_04 14:37

It's a great word to know, pikoach nefesh is actually it's two words. Pikuach Nef Nefesh. Yeah, so pikoach nefesh is the concept that to save a life overrides almost every single other thing in Judaism.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

That's right.

Pikuach Nefesh And School Guidance

SPEAKER_04 14:48

Right? So if you need to s to drive on Shabbat to save someone, you're allowed to do that. If someone has a gun to your head and says, eat this pig or I will kill you, you're allowed to eat the pig. Uh, Chief Rabbi Mervis, who is the Chief Commonwealth Rabbi, released in 2018 a how-to, a how-to guide on how to bring up LGBT things in schools in England, how to how to talk to and about queer students in schools in the UK. Um, and his main point, and this is again how I think most people sort of conceptualize it, is that if you're presented with a young kid who uh is gay or identifies as bisexual or queer or trans or any of these things, um, our basic level of responsibility to them is to make sure they don't want to kill themselves, right? And we know that there is a high prevalence of um mentality and mental health and all these things that are attached to acceptance within community. And so the baseline of that report was kind of bringing in all of these different um sources, Jewish sources, of how important Pikouach Nefish is and how important it is to give these students a space where they can be safe before you even get to discussing whether or not certain things are okay. We have to make sure that our spaces are okay for them to be in full stop. And I think that's the way that most people who are modern do practice. And specifically with your friend, uh if you meet a guy who's kind of religious, but not religious enough that he needs to date someone else who is religious, so I'm assuming your friends are not religious, right? Yeah, more so. So he's he's not religious enough to be dating other religious women, he's happy to date a secular person.

SPEAKER_02 16:34

Yeah, and they're stuping before marriage. Oh, fantastic.

SPEAKER_04 16:38

Okay. And yet, the so he's those are a few things that are not okay. Yes. Right? And he's willing to uh have sex before marriage, and he's willing to date a woman who is in a different religiosity, like a religious level to him. And yet, religion is the thing that is stopping him from accepting queer people as you know, allowed in our society and communities. Then I I am afraid that he is using religion as a guise for homophobia and as a way to intellectualize almost the fact that he is just homophobic.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:16

Because I can tell you I have been around a lot of religious people, all of whom are like, you know what, I'm not gonna do it, but it's it's fine for you. Religious people also tend to be really polite to your face, and anything that gets said behind my back is not my business. You know what I mean? So it's if they're treating me like humans in front of me, then that's fine. And they're not gonna be like, I'm actually you shouldn't be here because of who you are.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

Okay. But when they say you're it's fine, it's I accepting and I accept you and whatever, but I will not marry you in my synagogue, doesn't that send a different message? Or is that just more about being a good business person and knowing that if they did do that, they would pass their job?

SPEAKER_04 18:00

I think we've spoken maybe before, not on the podcast, just because we're friends in real life. Yeah. We talk all the time. Um, I think that we need to differentiate between Judaism being homophobic and Judaism being heteronormative. Two different things. And I think when it comes to halakhic marriage in an orthodox sense, hey, is this a I was just about to say, I love that you just said that and maybe say it again after the helicopter goes.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

Like it is the kind of podcast where we could say, okay. It's fine, the the helicopter is protecting the Jews. The police copter.

SPEAKER_04 18:38

Because Herzog's here. Herzog.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

Yeah, yeah.

Hypocrisy Check And Social Culture

SPEAKER_02 18:42

I think we need to keep that in the episode then. I I think reference and say should we salute as it goes overhead? So we've just had to stop recording this episode because we record in Sydney, Australia, and President Herzog, is that how you say it? Or Herzog is visiting, and so we've got a helicopter police presence. Helicopter's now gone, Shoshana. You just said breaking news. We need to differentiate between Judaism being homophobic and Judaism being heteronormative. Yes, I did say that. Say more.

SPEAKER_04 19:17

Um, I think that the same way that certain laws only apply in, you know, the secular world to certain people, right? Um, I'm trying to think of a good analogy. Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

It's just, you know. Head covering? No, that's not a secular world.

SPEAKER_04 19:37

That's not a secular world. Yeah, how about this? I think we have talked about this before, maybe. Um, how John Howard defined in like the early 90s, changed the marriage act in Australia. John Howard, a very famous conservative prime minister in Australia, changed the marriage act to add the words that marriage is between a man and a woman specifically. However, before that it didn't say, it just said marriage between two people, and everyone assumed that those two people were of the opposite gender, right? And that same-sex marriage wasn't actually still legal. Certain laws only apply between certain people in the secular world as well. And the mechanism of uh um, you know, kiddushin, which is how we get Jewishly married. Which we'll talk about more in a future episode. Yeah. Uh that mechanism really in the Orthodox Jewish world is between a man and a woman. Okay. It simply cannot apply to someone else. When Skye and I got married, we chose to not do uh Kidoshin because it's between a man and a woman, and because there are other ways that we could be partnered together in a Jewish way.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 20:54

Um, so yeah, I do think, is it deeply hurtful? Yes. Are there certain religious modern Orthodox, open Orthodox groups who will do Kiddushin for queer couples? Yes. Do I think that every Orthodox synagogue needs to be attacking not attacking, that's the wrong word, but like evolving halakha in a way that is uncomfortable for the their general population? I don't I don't think that's the answer. I think that there's plenty at least for me, and I people can be angry at that, and people can say I'm wrong, but I do think that there are certain levels that are hard for people to accept. Part of it isn't even the halachic aspect of it. I think part of the fight that we have as queer people in um Jewish spaces is changing the mindset of the social culture. It's not even the halacha, it's people like people would be upset. That guy who your friend. Broke up with. He doesn't care about he doesn't care that the Torah says it. Right? I don't think he'd be comfortable if two secular Jews were living together and married. They don't want to get halakhically married.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

You know what I mean? Okay.

SPEAKER_04 22:14

So it's one of those things of if an Orthodox Shaw was happy to have me sitting there, dressed as I am in the women's section, I'm fine with that space. I don't need to be married by them.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 22:25

Uh that's that's my two cents.

Heteronormative Vs Homophobic

SPEAKER_02 22:27

Just getting into the nitty-gritty because you did.

SPEAKER_04 22:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

When you said that in the Torah it says that you shall not lie with a man the way you would lie with a woman, well, seeing as the anatomy of men and women are different, then isn't that just by men having sex with other men it is automatically different to how they would lie with women? So I think it meant in terms of putting things inside things.

SPEAKER_04 22:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

But that's an interpretation.

SPEAKER_04 22:57

Okay, so then you can you can expand, I guess. That's a great question. Question to ask you, Rabbi. How is gay sex defined in the Torah? It it's pretty much universally like penetrative sex.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 23:09

Uh, even though some people would argue that other forms of intimacy are also sex. I think that's what the Torah is referring to.

SPEAKER_02 23:15

Okay. We could spend more on that, but we probably the algorithm won't like it. So it loves heated rivalry. What are you talking about? We have to in the caption spell sex S-E-G-G-S. I hate that. Yeah. Alright.

SPEAKER_04 23:31

You have other questions for that.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

I do have other questions. So uh did I ask you a queer relationship's forbidden the Torah? Yeah, that's pretty much what I just asked you. But you have more to say on that.

SPEAKER_04 23:41

Well, yeah, because the Torah only specifies in its text that men can't sleep with other men.

SPEAKER_02 23:49

Ah don't forget about the women. Don't write them out of history.

SPEAKER_04 23:56

Um so this takes a step back into again the religious history space. There's two different kinds of Torah. We have the oral law, we have the written law. The written law, or like Doraita, uh, or the Torah Shabihtav, I'm not gonna I'll put them in the show notes. Never heard those words, yeah. That's the stuff that's really ironclad. The written stuff. So we say it's like it's from that's that you can't really argue with that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 24:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 24:22

Um the oral law, which is written down into the Mishnah, which is then turned into the Talmud and the Gemara, all of those things, we should really have like a Jewish book episode, right? Coming up. Yeah. Um, so anyway, the the Mishnah, because a lot of it is discussion between different rabbis and the rabbis telling us what they think we should do. So there are certain laws that are given that we follow from the rabbis, and certain laws that are given from the written Torah itself. Um, and they're called Doraita, which is from the Torah, Durabanan from the rabbis. And again, gay male sex is pretty much the only form of you know homosexuality that is forbidden according to Doraita, according to the written law. Then the rabbis come along and expand that. So nice of them. And so there's actually a law that says that we should not be like the Egyptians, i.e., the people who oppressed us and lived immoral lives back in the day in ancient Egypt. And the rabbis come along and they expand what it means to be like an Egyptian, and one of the things they say is that the women had relationships with other women. So that's the kind of one of the main places we get the idea that lesbianism is disallowed.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

Okay. Egyptians also wore makeup hectic eyeliner, so is that also a thing?

SPEAKER_04 25:41

I don't think the rabbis spoke about that specifically. Right. But I think one of my favourite things about the Talmud is that when it talks about lesbians, one of the times, it's talking about lesbians in the context of can she marry a cohen? Can she marry a like a priest?

SPEAKER_02 26:02

Were there female priests?

Halakhic Marriage And Community Limits

SPEAKER_04 26:03

No. As in, can she marry a male? Is a priest allowed to marry a lesbian? Is the question. Which is so funny because even when it's talking about women sleeping with other women, it's within the context of male sexual male sexuality. Yes. So there's all of these different um categories of women who aren't able to marry Kohanim or the priestly class, and it includes converts, divorcees. And the question is can a le can a woman who sleeps with other women marry a cohen? And they go through the whole rigmarole and like the questioning. The answer is yes, she can if she wants to. Good for her. But it's really interesting because it describes this category of women, right? So you've got like divorcee, uh, widow, convert, and then you've got this category called women who mesolalot zobozo, like who do this so-and-so to each other, who participate in this and this. Okay. And it's really like esoteric language. And so then Rashi, who's one of the main commentators, has to come in and explain what it is and describes like they rub their genitals against one another. So he's in the text describing scissoring. Um, fantastic little tidbit for everyone. It's one of my favorite, it's so funny.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

Also, why you love Rashi? Because now I'm confusing Rashi with Maimonides, who's also Rum Bum.

SPEAKER_04 27:17

I mean, I love both of them a lot. Uh anyway, so what's also really interesting is that in the context of that describing women who do so this act together, this Masololot act that we don't really, that he describes then as ear. Um, they never say that that is fully disallowed. They it's the words around it that are used, it's heavily frowned upon, but it's not forbidden in the Talmud. In fact, it uses, I'm gonna read it because I always say it wrong, but it's Pritz Pritzutta Ba'alma, right? It's like it's it's really indecent, but something else that's defined as that uh later on in the Talmud is also wearing the colour red. So it's like those things are kind of held in this, it's we it's not it's not outwardly forbidden by Torah or by rabbis, but it's it's really not great. She shouldn't be doing it because it's kind of embarrassing or it's indecent in this community, and it's only later on in sort of medieval jewelry when the law is being codified by people like Maimonides and others that they say it's forbidden. So it takes this jump um to being like just fully outlawed rather than merely indecent. But the other, I'm just gonna keep going. The other interesting thing about it is that if it's describing women who engage in these relationships and it says keep your wives away from these women who are doing these indecent acts, it means that there are women in that community doing that. And it sounds like they have a little club going. Wearing red. And you're not allowed to let your wife join the club. You know what I mean? It's really it's that's more fascinating to me than the question of is it allowed? Because clearly it's been happening for a really long time. In the Talmud, you have women engaging in these relationships, and they mentioned this this this specific act, and it's mentioned again within a broader context. But it's there, but it's happening. And the fact that it's forbidden later on in medieval Europe suggests that maybe it's enough of a problem that they've had to just outright ban it because there are women in these communities doing that.

SPEAKER_02 29:24

Okay, another technical question. Yes. Rashi says that they're not allowed to scissor, they're not allowed to rub genitals. No, he said he doesn't say they're not allowed, he's just trying to define what misololot is. It defines what it is. Yeah. Okay, so he defines it as rubbing genitals, but doesn't talk about oral sex.

SPEAKER_04 29:40

He wasn't invited to the club. I think he's just trying to trying to figure out what the specific word mesololot means. Right, okay.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

Um that's the most straight man thing ever. So what's how do they do it? How do they do it? Amazing. Is there anything else you want to say about that? I'd maybe like to ask you about does the Talmud really have eight categories of gender?

SPEAKER_04 30:05

You can ask me that.

SPEAKER_02 30:06

Because I read that somewhere.

SPEAKER_04 30:08

Yeah, so I think that this is another great question, and this is kind of an internet debate. It's not a debate because it's clearly there, but it's one of these misconceptions of Jewishness on the internet.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

Right.

SPEAKER_04 30:20

It's kind of used as this gotcha, well, and back in the day they were so gender diverse, or they believed all these things. The gender categories in the Talmud are actually more about biological sex realities, um, and so it's different categories of people and how they physically present as man or woman or something in between.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 30:40

So nowadays we define gender as an you know, a social construct, something you perform, and your biological sex is the parts and the chromosomes you're born with. Yes. When they talk about the eight, seven, six to eight genders in the Talmud, they're talking about the physical reality and not like the identity of people. Because you've got person born as man, person born as I'm gonna say it because yeah, I always forget the different terms. But you've got Zachor is is as a man, born male, nakeva, born female, then you've got androgynous, which is someone born with both characteristics. Tumtum, someone somehow born with neither characteristic. You've got um the alonit, which is a woman or a female at birth, but then at puberty, the secondary physical, sexual um bits characteristics don't arrive. Saris Hama and Saris Adam are similar because it's either you're born a male and those characteristics don't arrive. The secondary um characteristics of puberty is saris hammer, and sarisadam is that they don't arise because you're castrated. Ah, and so those are again, and the questions around these people are, you know, if a woman, if someone looks like androgynous but they get their period, how do they function in society? Because they could be a man, but they have this impurity about them in terms of like ritual impurity. And so it's kind of trying to tackle all of these different halakhic realities of, well, you know, if someone doesn't give you a child in, let's say, I can't remember the number, but in seven years of marriage, you're allowed to divorce them. So if you've got people who are unable to have children because they assumed that most of these other categories were infertile. So if you marry a woman who you know was born a woman, but she at puberty she doesn't have these characteristics. Well, what's the functionality of that? How do I go around making a family with this person? So that's why they're defined in that way.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 32:39

It's not really about, and which is to not say that I think a lot of um non-binary Jewish people today look back at that and find deep comfort in that, which I think is beautiful. And I think that's the most important part is that it's not just because it's different in terms of how it contends with gender to how we contend with gender, doesn't mean that it can't be a source of great comfort to people who experience you know dysphoria in different ways and identify in different ways. Because it's it's there in the book.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

Alright, my next question before we wrap up. Let's say that someone transitions in contemporary times. Yes. What would be their halachic obligations then?

SPEAKER_04 33:24

Great question.

SPEAKER_02 33:25

Thank you.

Women Loving Women In The Talmud

SPEAKER_04 33:26

Um well, I think if they want to keep mitzvot, no one's stopping them from doing that. Um I think the biggest thing would be socially. How do they, you know, act in a place? Okay. If I go to Shaw, which side of the mechitza do I sit on?

SPEAKER_02 33:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 33:42

And again, this kind of really only happens in orthodox spaces. In a lot of egal spaces, either you, you know, if you go to the reform shawl, you actually sit all together. So there is no mechitza. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 33:52

Mechitza being the dividing partition between separates male, female.

SPEAKER_04 33:57

You have a lot of egal um egalitarian those who don't know the lingo. You have a lot of egalitarian spaces who have something called a trichitza where they have men, women, and then other. Right? So that an other is if you don't identify as either, but also if you don't subscribe to being separated by gender during your twila. Side note I hate the word trichitzah, just because in the word mchitza, the mh part isn't the part that means half like two half. The chhetzi, right? So then why do we call it like tri-halves? Like, I don't know, I hate it. It's a what should hate it? I don't know, but it's not that. Anyway, most of the people who are talking about and writing about queer halacha, I think would say that you go, you sit on the side that you present as. Judaism is a lot about modesty and social norms. And so if you are a trans man, it would be, it would look ridiculous and it would cause more of a stir for you being a presenting male and then going and sitting on in the women's section. Yes. Right?

SPEAKER_02 35:04

That would be- I think it would be distressing for the person as well.

SPEAKER_04 35:08

Yes. I as in in terms of the halakhic sort of Oh, okay, yes. Right, let's pretend they walk into that space and you know they're just trying to figure out what's best for the shawl. Right. Because they've come to that point in in their journey. Yeah. However, you present, you go to that side. Okay. Because that's just it's about the look of it.

SPEAKER_02 35:28

Okay, and a trans woman can I I'm assuming you're gonna say it's case by case, but could a trans woman um do mikvah?

SPEAKER_04 35:36

That in Sydney, no, because again, we're a very conservative community, but I'm sure there are places in the States that a case-by-case basis. It's it's less about is there halakha that everyone will follow according to that, or are there communities where they are trying to um sort of formulate halachot around these things? Because it's so new and because it's quite divisive for a lot of people, it'll be like a community-by-community basis. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 36:07

I do know that one of the reform synagogues in Sydney is working on building for years a miqvah. Fever, forever and ever and ever. I thought it was happening when I was there last time, but they were actually digging to fix the pipe. Well to break the pipe so that no, it was for something else. Yeah, anyway. We need to wrap up this episode. No, but we've still got our everyone's favourite segment. Everyone's favourite game. Uh shame. I love it. With the queer theme this week, of course. So, this one came up in a group in New South Wales, Australia. And someone has posted pictures of. Can you describe it for the people listening?

Eight Gender Categories Explained

SPEAKER_04 36:54

It identifies as a colour. Speaking of identities, does it look like one? No. Uh, it has a big centre, and then these little nodules on the outside that are all different rainbow colours. Uh and then am I reading the caption? And then sprinkled on top? Oh, and then there's like rainbows and glitter on top. And then there's hands pulling it apart, and the dough inside is all colourful. Okay. And then I'll read the the quick. This month is Pride Month. It celebrates the diversity of the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and intersex community. To help celebrate, I have made a special Pride Flower colour, which is filled with rainbows. There are rainbow sprinkles on top and inside the petals, plus rainbow dough in the center of the flower. You too can celebrate with your family. You can find me on Instagram or Facebook. Before I get cynical, silly. Okay. I do it's beautiful. It's really nice. That they're trying. They're trying. And they are trying to marry religious Jewish ritual with queer pride. I love that. I love everyone. Should be trying to do that and be inclusive and welcoming in our spaces. At the bare minimum. At the bare minimum. Yeah. I don't think colour is the place to do it. Because coloured bread is gross. I've had rainbow colour before. I don't know if it's from this place. It's gr it tastes like dookie. There's something that like poop. Like, it just tastes bad. It doesn't taste good.

SPEAKER_02 38:22

I said to you that looking at that colour, it looks like we're being punished for being celebrated.

SPEAKER_04 38:28

Literally.

SPEAKER_02 38:29

I also feel like the tokenism of it all, it just bugs me. But I will say. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 38:37

The week out of Parshat Noah, which is the um the Parsha where we read the story of like Noah and the Ark. It has become a custom in Orthodox spaces to make a rainbow colour. And every time, and you've got hordes of these orthodox hetero women posting their rainbow colour, and I say, Hey, that's not for you. You're that's appropriation. And they don't like it when you say that.

SPEAKER_02 39:07

Amazing. If this person whose business we're not going to mention, if it was a queer business, I'd be all for it.

SPEAKER_04 39:15

I do think that maybe in this community we do need more stralis, straight allies. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 39:21

Is that another term that you made up?

SPEAKER_04 39:23

Yeah, like just then just now? Yeah, just I do think we need a few more of them. So I'm not totally angry about this. I just think is colour the way to do that. Maybe we can colour a gefilterfish.

SPEAKER_02 39:39

Which some people might say already tastes like dookie, did you say?

SPEAKER_04 39:44

Dookie. Dookie. Gefilterfish is delicious. I know. Maybe we have a long gefilterfish and then some gefilterfish balls. You know what I mean? Like I think there's so many avenues. A trollant. You can't colour a trollant. You can't. Something about beans, maybe? Right. Or a kishko. That's a great question. What are the best Jewish foods to make gay? That's our question for you. And why is it not colour? Or is there a way to make colour gayer without rainbows? And on that note, it's time for our outro.

SPEAKER_02 40:19

Hooray. That's it for today's show. You've been watching or listening to Asham to Admit with me, Tammy Sussman, and my co-host, Shoshana Gottlieb Becker.

SPEAKER_04 40:32

This episode was brought to you by The Jewish Independent with Alleyway Productions. The vocalist in our theme song is Saria L, and there are more credits in the show notes.

SPEAKER_02 40:41

If you like this show, please leave a positive review, forward it to a friend, your family WhatsApp group. Love you so much. Okay, bye guys.