Ashamed to Admit

Adam did what? And other bonkers bible bits.

• The Jewish Independent • Season 4 • Episode 7

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 41:16

Adam did some things your Jewish Studies teachers weren’t allowed to tell you. Snakes had legs. And there’s a biblical reason why you’re not the preferred sibling. Sound a bit bonkers? Welcome to this episode of Ashamed to Admit. 

This episode was filmed and edited by Alleyway Productions 

Watch it on YouTube

The vocalist in the theme song is Sara Yael 

Subscribe to The Jewish Independent's bi-weekly newsletter: jewishindependent.com.au

Follow Tami and Shoshana on Instagram : @tami_sussman_bits & @jewishmemesonly

X: TJI_au

Facebook: TheJewishIndependentAU

Instagram: thejewishindependent

LinkedIn: the-jewish-independent



SPEAKER_00:

Ashamed to ask, ashamed to admit, got dewy, dewy questions. This is it, this is it. Why is wicked simple or I'm sure how to ask? We'll open up the books of the ark. We'll open up your cynical heart. No such a thing as a dumb question. Okay, that's mostly true. Tammy and Shashama are here for you. Asham to admit.

SPEAKER_06:

A shame to ask. It's everything you didn't get in Jewish studies class.

SPEAKER_02:

Hello and welcome back to Asham to admit. I'm Tammy Sussman. Are you?

SPEAKER_05:

Are you sure?

SPEAKER_02:

And this is my co-host, Shoshana Gottlieb Becker. And this is our and a very happy Purim today. Purim Samayach One and All. If you haven't listened to our Purim episode last week, what should our viewers and listeners do, Shoshana?

SPEAKER_06:

Go back and listen to it, I think.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I think that's what they should do. Yeah. Um, but today is Purim.

SPEAKER_05:

Congratulations.

SPEAKER_02:

That's why I came dressed.

SPEAKER_05:

Oh, I thought you were just going for like a new look or something.

SPEAKER_02:

And I even brought a costume for you. The the person who loves Purim, by the way. You bring a c you brought a wig. I brought a full costume for you're gonna find out. Okay, but first I need to remind our viewers and our listeners. Last week I expressed how painful I find Purium in terms of the mental load. Yesterday, before we started recording, I said to Shoshana, do you want to bring a costume for the Purium episode? And Shoshana said, and I quote, I don't have the bandwidth, which proved my point that Purium is a burden. No, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_06:

No, no, no. I have just started full-time work again after the summer holidays. My wife was overseas and I didn't have the time to just put it together for this purpose. But actual Purim, I'm gonna wear a costume. Okay. Already thinking about it. This isn't important enough to you. It's less that I just I didn't have the bandwidth. Alright.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. The costume that I brought for you is the shatel behind you for those watching. It's now, I think it's is it in the the wide shot? Yeah. Okay. So I was gonna get you to wear that so that you could be a Rebertson, or I brought I thought it's gonna be hard enough to get Shoshana with her oppositional defiance disorder into a shadow. But I thought, you know, maybe if she's in the mood for it, she might even put on some lipstick. Can you hold that? Because then I thought you could be lipstick lesbian and and I could be pillow princess.

SPEAKER_06:

I know I don't want to do that. Also, I don't think a wig is not a full costume. A wig and lipstick is not a col like nah.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, so in improvisation, you learn that when you get an advanced diploma in performing arts. What I just did was made an offer, and what you just did denied. Yeah, you shut it down. I don't want to do it though. Thanks for being a team player.

SPEAKER_06:

I don't like things like on me.

SPEAKER_02:

Quote Shoshana Gotli Becker. I don't like things on me. I don't like paints. I also I can't wear nail polish.

SPEAKER_06:

I don't like it. I don't like makeup. I was gonna put it on my hand and swatch it because I've seen people uh uh freak me out.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_06:

I don't know what that says about me.

SPEAKER_02:

And your professionalism. Shoshana, today's episode is not about Purim because as we've mentioned, we've already done that last week. We did that last week. But we're still feeling festive. Clearly. So today I've got some questions for you. Questions about stories. So it's Purim adjacent. Stories we heard as kids. Yeah. Maybe when we were in Jewish studies class, or maybe um on you know rug rats episodes.

SPEAKER_06:

I don't think they did the rugrats about.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, well, today we're gonna talk about some stories that we heard, or maybe you, our viewers and listeners, might have heard when you were kids. You just accepted them, and then maybe you grew up and you realize that they were cooked, and you're like, what was going on there?

SPEAKER_06:

There are lots of things that are cooks. Great word. Great use of the word cooked, I would say, yeah. Cuckoo bananas. Cuckoo banana pants.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So today, Shoshana, she's here for you. And I'm gonna ask you some questions about, yeah. Raising your hand. Yes.

SPEAKER_06:

Hey, so I don't want to like negate anything you've said again.

SPEAKER_02:

Again.

SPEAKER_06:

But like, or so soon. Yeah. You haven't chosen the craziest stories. Really? I feel like there are crazier stories. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

This can be the entry point, it can be the gateway.

SPEAKER_06:

Gateway crazy.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

This is the bareshit version.

SPEAKER_06:

You know what's crazy about the word bareshit? It's got the word shit in it, and that's the case. Yeah, when I make cahoots way up. When I make cahoots for students, I have to write bareshists like Ashkenazim, because otherwise cahoot blo like it blocks the cahoot. Anti- Because it says sh shit in it. Anti-Semitics. Yeah. Anti-Semitic Semites. Anti-Semitics, yeah. Anti-Semitics.

SPEAKER_02:

Good. Got it.

unknown:

Alright.

SPEAKER_06:

So what are the stories? Lay it on me.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, the two stories that we are going to cover today are Hava and the Snake, who I've since learnt is Eve. Hover's her Hebrew name, right?

SPEAKER_06:

You you were like Hava and also let's talk about Eve, but I had to be like, hey, hey, bestie.

SPEAKER_02:

They are the same. Same person. Yeah. Same thing may have happened with Maimonides and Rum Bum.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, people have two names, it gets confusing. I get it. Don't worry.

SPEAKER_02:

So we're talking about Hava and the snake. Um and then we're gonna talk about Cain and Abel, not to be confused with A Sov and Yakov.

SPEAKER_06:

Oh, yeah, because you got those mixed up. Because when you first said Cain and Abel and the hairy one. Yeah. And I was like, hey, bestie. Let's walk that back. Different brothers. A Sov is the hairy one. But it did lead you to a different question, which we'll get to, I think.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, yeah, we will. Let's start with Eden.

SPEAKER_06:

Eden.

SPEAKER_02:

The garden.

SPEAKER_06:

Hardly knew him.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow. Well, whatever you didn't bring into Eden costume.

SPEAKER_06:

That's gonna be an asset, as they call it. We're gonna post that on the socials later.

SPEAKER_02:

Um are we starting with Eden?

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah. Yeah, uh well that chronologically predates Cain and Abel, Cain and Havel. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

Because they come first, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

They come first. I also didn't know that until I read some of your research. No, I didn't know. So Adam and Eve had kids. And they were Cain and Abel. I didn't know that. Don't look at me like I'm stupid.

SPEAKER_06:

You just thought they were two. I thought you chose those two stories because you knew that they were right next to each other. You just randomly chose those two stories. I believe you chose Cain and Abe. I didn't choose Cain and Abel. I chose Isaac and Jakob. No, you said Cain and Abel and then asked about the hair, and I said those are different people.

SPEAKER_02:

Look, I don't remember. I just it could be randomly.

SPEAKER_06:

We can check the Google Docs histories.

SPEAKER_02:

Alright, let's start with Hover and the Snake.

SPEAKER_06:

Okay. Well, what do you want to know?

SPEAKER_02:

First of all, um, there's that garden.

SPEAKER_06:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Do you want me to ask you about the garden or not so much? Get straight into the story.

SPEAKER_06:

We can get into the story. Okay. Um, I like to start at a certain well, firstly, there are two creation stories, which I have been told we talk too much, we need to cut things out. So I want to talk about the fact that there's two creation stories. Didn't know there were two. Which is also fascinating in and of itself. Lots written about it. Um I want to start a little bit later. So God creates has six the six days of creation. Do you know when man is created on which day? The last? Fantastic, yeah. Thank you. At the end of the last day. So God creates all of the mammals and stuff on the sixth day, and then man is also made after that. And God gives humans dominion over the earth. And part of that is that um God wants man to name all of the animals. Okay. I would like you to read. I like making you read the Torah site unseen. So can you read where it says Genesis 2, 18 to 21?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. The Lord said, It's not good for man to be alone. I will make a fitting helper for him. And the Lord formed out of the earth all the wild beasts and all the birds of the sky and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called each living creature, that would be its name. And the man gave name to all the cattle and to the birds of the sky and to all the wild beasts, but for Adam, no fitting helper was found. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_06:

Okay, so this is a really fun piece of the Torah, because it's kind of bookend in two different ways, right? It starts off, God says, It's not good for people to be alone, he needs a partner. Adam needs someone because humans are social creatures. Loneliness epidemic. God realize God like realizes that really early on. And it goes from God being like man shouldn't be alone, I'm gonna find him a helper or make him a helper. And then God comes and brings all of the animals before Adam, and Adam names all of the animals, and then it says, But for Adam, no fitting helper was found out of those animals. And what the rabbis say in the Talmud is that when Adam was looking for his, the Hebrew was Ezer Kenegdov, for his fitting helper, his partner in life. Before God made Eve, Adam smooshed boots, smooshed booties with all of the animals in the animal kingdom to try and find his animal helper. Or not his helper, his fitting helper. And we see and we can see how the rabbis got that out of the text because of the structure of the text. So the rabbis are like, yeah, like he needed a helper. So he slipped all the animals. Rashi gives it Rashi gives a family-friendly version. Rashi says that all of the animals were brought before him, and Adam could see that each animal had a male and a female, but he was only male. He didn't have the female counterpart. Right. Therefore, there was no fitting helper. But the rabbis who predate Rashi say that he smooshed boots with all of the animals in the animal kingdom, and then was like, I don't think this is for me.

SPEAKER_02:

Or as you've written here Adam as hitting every booty in the animal kingdom. Yeah, did that hit all the booties. Yeah. Wow, did not get that in Jewish studies class. You wouldn't. But what I'm stuck on, I know you've just mentioned bestiality, but what I'm stuck on is the fact that she's described as a helper because having been through marriage counselling and divorce, that word helper really hate it.

SPEAKER_06:

I wish you would tell me that because I could pull up my diva torah that I gave at my friend's wedding. But basically, Ezera Conegdo is often translated as fitting helper, but one of the ways in which it can be translated is like an equal, an equal and opposite. Oh. So one who is across from me. It's like nicer language. Okay. Yeah. So that's so that so that happens. So then Eve is created from the rib, or from the side, rather it says, is brought to life. But before Eve is created, God gives Adam a very important message. Do you know what the message is? Um don't worry, bro. You'll meet her soon. You'll meet the one soon. No, I'm kidding. What does God say? God says, don't eat, you can eat from anything in this garden.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_06:

But do not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

SPEAKER_02:

I was gonna say that, but I thought that happened after she arrived.

SPEAKER_06:

No, so actually that happens before she arrived. God says, don't eat from the the tree of knowledge of good and evil. You can eat anything else you want any other tree in the in the garden except for this one. If you eat from this one, what will happen?

SPEAKER_02:

You won't be able to go to the promised land.

SPEAKER_06:

No. You will die, you will surely die. Oh if you eat from this one tree, you'll die. Okay. And then Eve is born of the rib. Right? And we spoke about that in a bit more detail in our episode on Lilith, I'm pretty sure. Right? We spoke about that. So go back and listen for a little refresher. Um Eve's created, and because God is also teaching people how to be humans, human beings, and how to function in the world, God's like, delegate this one. You tell Eve, it doesn't actually say this. But Adam is obviously entrusted as the ruler of Eden with telling Eve the rules of living there. And when Adam tells Eve the rules, what do you think he says?

SPEAKER_02:

I think he doesn't give her the full message because it's a bit of he kind of doesn't really remember what God told him. So he gives like not the best explanation.

SPEAKER_06:

Ah, so I would say that he gives kind of, he gives a very rabbinic explanation. Oh. He says, Don't touch the tree, because if you touch the tree, you'll die. So he builds a fence, right? That's what the rabbi says. He builds this fence around the prohibition, right? The same way that technically I can pick up a pen on Shabbat, I just can't write with it. But the rabbis say, don't even touch the pen. So Adam says, We're not supposed to eat from the tree, don't even touch it. Okay. But he never specifies what's actually not allowed, which is eating. Eating. So he just says don't touch it. And so then the rabbis say that when the snake comes along, this is a midrash, this is rabbinic storytelling to help explain the story a bit more. The snake comes along, bumps chava into the tree, and she touches it, and he's like, Well, you didn't die. So then I bet you could eat from it. Uh it's a fun little story.

SPEAKER_02:

That's something you also I didn't get that in Jewish Daddy's class. We just got told that she knew not to eat the apple.

SPEAKER_06:

She knows not to touch it, and and you would assume also not to eat it. Okay. Right? Um, maybe she's they're told not to touch it, not to eat it. I can't remember the exact wording. I couldn't I can check my Korean Tanakh if you want.

SPEAKER_02:

Shoshana's just made fun of the fact that she has a for our people, our our viewers, bring it out. Oh my goodness. Shoshana brought with her a tanach. That's your camera. I know, I was showing it in yours because it's closer. I know. That's fine. She's brought a tanach, which is called a Korentanah. Korentanah, but I wasn't wearing my glasses when she whipped it out, and I said, Oh, the Korean Tanakh. Didn't know it was. I didn't know it was so popular.

SPEAKER_04:

I like that we can we can fact check ourselves, right? And no, so Adam says not to touch it, not to eat it. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Yep. Yep. Thank you for clarifying.

SPEAKER_06:

I want to ask. Actually, what it is is this the snake, the reason that we know what she was told is because the snake says, Is it true that you're not allowed to eat that you can't eat from any of the trees? He's trying to trick her. And she says, No, I was told that um I will I was told that you you you cannot eat from the fruit and you cannot touch it. So it was she was given both of the sort of prohibitions.

SPEAKER_02:

So this is the earliest documentation of gaslighting. A little bit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

I'm not gonna put my phone on top of the table. Do you put it back on the shelf?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I reckon put it back on the shelf. Um, is another one of those rabbinical explanations like you know, you can't mix meat or milk. So that's why people have two dishwashers.

SPEAKER_06:

It's a bit harder because some it that's more like some people say because of the hot water, the dishes shouldn't. I don't want to get into crush.

SPEAKER_02:

That's another episode. Yes. All right. Okay, that's fine. I'm sorry for that tangent.

SPEAKER_06:

It's okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Anyway, so the snake comes along. The snake comes along.

SPEAKER_06:

This a lot of people say the snake is a metaphor for for your evil inclination, right? The little devil on your shoulder who tells you the wrong thing to do. Okay. And he would call it the Yetzer Hara. Alright. We have the Yetzerhara, the Yetzertov. Right? So maybe it's a metaphor.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_06:

Maybe it's a real snake. Another fun fact about the snake: do you know what the snake's punishment for this whole story is? It gets circumcised. Close. So man gets punishment, woman gets punishment, and snake gets punishment in this story because all of them have a role to play in the eating of the fruit.

SPEAKER_02:

What happens to the snake?

SPEAKER_06:

Well, do you let's go through all of the punishments? What's the man's punishment? Um can't remember. Okay, so they get ejected from Eden. Yeah. Man's punishment is they have to work the land, toil the land. It's not just going to provide for them, but they have to work it to make the food.

SPEAKER_02:

Woman's punishment? I know. She can't run around a park by herself at night for the rest of time. Close. What is it? Childbirth. Oh.

SPEAKER_06:

And also being lesser than her husband. And then the snake's punishment is that uh for all of time it will slither around on its belly and eat the dust of the earth of people's feet. Which begs the question. And this is again the rabbis come in and they say, Well, that means that back in the day in Eden, snakes had arms and legs and could like walk around like that. And then they chop, chop, chop, chop.

SPEAKER_02:

They were more like the gecko.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, I always imagined it as the snake stood on two legs like a human, but it was just a snake with arms like that.

SPEAKER_02:

So if you are only listening to this, you need to watch the YouTube version because Shoshana just impersonated as a that's how I imagined it, okay?

SPEAKER_06:

God on two legs.

SPEAKER_02:

So kill me for having an imagination. So it's not. Is there am I just making this up, or is it just my interpretation? I thought that there's some feminist reading that the snake represents the Shhmek, and so it's a could be.

SPEAKER_06:

There could be a broader literary analysis that a more feminist reading. You're not aware of? I don't think the rabbis talk about it like that. It could be that modern contemporary authors do. I've never come across it. Alright. Um what I think is interesting, and this is my feminist reading of it. So what happens is Eve is the first to eat. Eve takes a bite of the apple, then she takes it to Adam for him to taste the apple. He is very easily convinced to do so. And after he eats the apple, they both realize that they're naked, they both feel shame for the first time and have to make clothes and cover up. But there is a moment in time, if we go back, Eve eats the fruit, we assume gains all of this knowledge, wisdom, and understanding of the world, right? The knowledge of good and bad. She has that upon herself, and her first instinct is to share all of this new come knowledge and emotion and intellect with her partner, and his first act is to make her feel shame in her naked body. Because she only has to make the clothes, they only make the clothing and cover up when there's two of them who have that knowledge, and his eyes fall on her and make her feel that.

SPEAKER_02:

Interesting. So it's almost like the first recorded moment of a man telling a woman that she shouldn't be wearing that that she should.

SPEAKER_06:

Well, like you've gained a few, like but isn't I I always think that that's for me the most fascinating. That brief you don't even see it. There's not even a a pusuk or a verse between the two, but there is that moment in time she chooses to share. And that's only then that she feels the shame, is when she sh his eyes are on her. Question, how do you feel about nude beaches? Never been to one.

SPEAKER_02:

Don't really if it's f if it if it's for you, if it makes your boat float, go for it. Nudist colony for a holiday?

SPEAKER_06:

Not for me. Okay. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. I'm like too from for that, you know. Like, like my my from sensibilities start tingling. You there's uh you're only for certain people.

SPEAKER_02:

Mm-hmm. I'm all for nude beaches. I think it's beautiful and like swimming naked is amazing. Actually, going to a colony where you have to eat, I don't like eating naked, yeah. Naked. Alright, so we're moving on to Cain and Abel now. No. Alright, so this is an easy story.

SPEAKER_06:

I like this story. Fascinating story.

SPEAKER_02:

Is it fascinating? Is it cooked or is it just caught? No, no, it's just like so.

SPEAKER_06:

Who are you? Oh, great question. Cain and Abel are the firstborn two sons of Adam and Eve. They're born outside of Adam and Chaba, born outside of Eden. Uh-huh. And they have differing relationships with God. God doesn't like Cain's offering as much as he likes Abel's offering.

SPEAKER_02:

Cain, whoa, whoa. A few steps back. What do you mean, offering? What are they offering to God?

SPEAKER_06:

So I think the the I don't know again when you learn Torah at school, it's hard to know what is the text and what is the rabbis because you're taught it in this jumbled mix of like everything is true. Yeah. I think it's that Cain was offering vegetables and fruits, and Hevel or Abel was offering animals. One was a shepherd, one was a farmer.

SPEAKER_02:

Ah, but when you mean offering, you're talking about something that you brought up in an earlier episode, which I don't like which is when before Jews had prayers and prayed in the synagogues that we know today, they were making offerings to God. Yeah. Sacrifice.

SPEAKER_06:

So fruit and vegetable sacrifice could be that he was burning them, right? You would take the best of your fruits and offer them to God. At least in this context, you're not giving it to the priestly class. Okay. And then animals you would sacrifice and go up in flames and burn it and whatnot, what not, whatnot. Yeah. Alright. So the rabbi, again, the rabbis kind of say that Cain didn't give his best produce, Hevel gave his best. The text I don't think says that it just says that God favoured Hevel's produce. And then it's I again a really interesting part of the text where they go into the field together and there's a missing line of dialogue. It says Cain or Cain said to Abel dot dot dot, and then like we don't know that conversation between them, which I think is quite beautiful.

SPEAKER_02:

It's been omitted.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Why is that beautiful?

SPEAKER_06:

I think there's something to be said of this is a sibling, this is a fight between brothers, and it doesn't actually matter what the fight is, but the the end result is the first murder. I think you can read in so many different things into it. It doesn't again, it doesn't yeah. No one cares what the actual words were, it's the end result. Or you could say that, you know, um it's not for us to know. It's between them. Got it.

SPEAKER_02:

And is this the first historically noted moment of broigus between siblings?

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah. Because they're the first siblings according to the text. So I think it is funny. The first set of siblings ends with Broigus. Yeah. And then this is another fun fact. So then Cain is sort of forced to wonder for the rest of his life and like leave where his family lives and blah blah blah. And he is scared to do so because he might be attacked by whatever's out there. And so God says that he will put a mark, the mark of Cain. We don't know what it is, whether it's some people say that it's a dog. So we had the beast, and that was the mark, it's something on his forehead that people could see. Anyway, if whoever kills Cain, what will happen to them will be he will be avenged times seven. Right? So what happens to them will be seven times as bad as what happens to Cain, but that's where the band name comes from, Avenged Sevenfold. The band name. Yeah, you know the band Avenged Sevenfold? Don't that was such a cool story, and then you're like, no, I don't know it.

SPEAKER_02:

Don't know it. What are they? They're like a metal band. Do I look like someone who knows names of metal band?

SPEAKER_06:

You look very worldly. I don't know what you do and don't know. That's not my business. I just assume. I'm not a fan of metal. Yeah. Metal's an acquired taste.

SPEAKER_04:

It isn't a quiet taste. I'm not a fan of it either, but I know it exists. I've heard its name. Alright.

SPEAKER_06:

God damn it, you people. Alright, so God says whoever kills. I that part doesn't matter. I just brought that up to say Avenge. Sevenfold, and then you didn't even know who they were. Alright. I'm just a bit salty about it.

SPEAKER_02:

Keep going. So who does find Cain and who does Oh no, then it's then it's the story moves on.

SPEAKER_06:

Then we find out about their descendants or hang on. So no one kills someone in this? Yeah, Cain kills Abel. You missed that part. I didn't. I said they go into the forest, we miss out the dialogue, but then he kills him.

SPEAKER_02:

Did you? Maybe I tuned out. I thought you only said that they just had a little fight, but we don't know what was said.

SPEAKER_06:

Your one job is to listen to me. And it's very possible that I missed out the words and then he killed him. But you're not allowed to zone out.

SPEAKER_02:

I was thinking sorry, it's fine. I'm representing the people, the listeners, the viewers that sometimes.

SPEAKER_06:

They go into the fields. Okay. They say it, they have words, Cain kills Abel, Cain has to escape and is sent away for the death of his brother. Okay. And then God says whoever kills you, it will be like you will be avenged sevenfold times seven. And that's about it. Alright. So yeah, so the first sibling duo in history ended in bloodshed.

SPEAKER_02:

But it got me thinking there's a lot of sibling rivalry. That theme comes up a lot.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, it's probably the theme of Genesis is that Genesis is told through sibling rivalry or sparring family.

SPEAKER_02:

Why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_06:

I can tell what some rabbis think.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

I think that my theory is that Genesis is learning how to be human. And I think that if you think this gets into who is God to us, but for me, God is both God, but the God that's in the Torah is a character, right? That is written whether you think by people or by God self, right? Anyway, but the character of God in the Torah is learning how to interact with people as they evolve and have spent more time on earth. And the same way, people are learning how to be people. And the whole point of Genesis is we are finding what it means to be people in family in community as being connected to God. And so it's about how all of those different relationships are permutating and how we settle into them and giving us blueprint for being in places like family, community, and in relationship with God. And so I think that it makes sense then that the deepest, most primal thing about a person is their sibling. Yeah. And it it's the person who is essentially you but in a different font. And so how do how do you relate to the people who are closest to you is gonna say hello, but how you relate to people who are more removed from you? Anyway, that's what I think. I think it's it's just so innately human to have siblings and to fight with them. Yeah. And this is a blueprint of of how you should be with them kind of vibes, and the different things that can go wrong. I think it's Jonathan Sachs, Rabbi Lord Jonathan, I think maybe a doctor thrown in there of Blessed Dr. Rabbi Lord Doctor Jonathan. Yeah, Reverend Sacks. Fanta fantastic human being, lots of really great books. Uh wrote that he thought it was sort of a metaphor almost for the different Abrahamic faiths and religions constantly sparring because we all come from that same source of Abraham, and yet cyclically, historically, there has been spats, you know.

SPEAKER_02:

That's one word.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, that's one word. Anyway, but what's really important, Genesis starts at this point with siblings who fight and one kills each other. Genesis ends with two siblings who and they're actually the first siblings in the book who don't fight and who actually get along.

SPEAKER_01:

Who's that?

SPEAKER_06:

Those are the sons of Joseph or Yosef.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, but they they kick Joseph out.

SPEAKER_06:

No, no, Joseph's sons.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, Joseph's sons.

SPEAKER_06:

Which is even more beautiful, right? Joseph is in a relationship not just with one brother, but with eleven brothers who mistreat him, or most of them mistreat him, yeah, who sell him into slavery. Yeah. But then he breaks that generational cycle. He number one manages to forgive them. Number two, his sons don't hate each other. In fact, there is no jealousy between them. And so it's a story of sort of like that evolution of how do we get from this point of how do we get to the point from, you know, wordless action? Right? There's no dialogue, there's no communication between the first two. One kills the other. How do we get that to that last point of again it's this whole roundabout story, but how do we get to the point of the younger sibling gets more than the older sibling, but there is no jealousy between them? Right? How do we how do we as parents do that? How do we as teachers do that? How do we as people get to that point of not feeling that jealousy? I've it's beautiful stuff. It is beautiful. The Torah is great, you guys.

SPEAKER_02:

This especially the Korean ones.

SPEAKER_06:

There's just so much to learn. I don't know, I love it. I think like whatever you need to learn from it, it's gonna be there to teach you.

SPEAKER_02:

I've met your brother. Yes, you have Jacob Gottlieb. Lovely, beautiful, amazing, intelligent, do you think we look the same? There is a similarity.

SPEAKER_06:

I don't see it.

SPEAKER_02:

I think if you were wearing the red shadow that I provided. If I held it like there, yeah, you'd look alike.

SPEAKER_06:

I don't see it.

SPEAKER_02:

He's younger, right? Okay, I was gonna- He's two and a half years older than I. I was gonna say, because you give younger siblings. Because I am so who who gave better offerings and sacrifices to Gail growing up?

SPEAKER_06:

My mum. I think we both gave in different ways. Okay. I mean, not to talk too much about my family, because you know, um that's not what you're paid to do. Yeah, I don't want to start broigus. Okay. I think my brother is very similar to my mum in terms of personality, but it's just because they're so different in terms of you know, space and time. My mum was born a long time ago, no offense to her. Um in a different space is a woman in a different life point, has gone through different things. My brother is, you know, 30-something, a man, living in, you know, 2026.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

But similar personalities you see manifest in different ways, which I think is fascinating. Okay. I don't know how similar I am to them. I think I'm different, but then I am told I am not. I think I don't know. I would go to the movies with my mum, I would go grocery shopping with her, so I would do all of that stuff, but then my brother just makes her laugh really hard, and that equalizes apparently. That's the he's a good boy, he does lots now.

SPEAKER_02:

I love how you interpreted that question because I meant literally like who gave her better presents growing up.

SPEAKER_06:

Oh, I always like was the present organizer, but that's just because I was the girl. Yeah, I was also the one who always had to clear the Shubbas table. Because if Jacob had friends, Jacob's friends were over here, so you have to help clean up while he's with his friends. But if my friends were over, well, your friends are there, so you have to help clean up because it's for your friends. What you're gonna say about that one, mum? I'm kidding, she doesn't listen to this. Yes. Oh, she doesn't know how. And I'm not teaching her how to use Spotify, so I can say anything I want about her. Thanks for that. Yeah. It's time to move on. Wait, what about you?

SPEAKER_02:

Why do you always do this? It's like when I want you to throw back to me, you don't, and when I don't want you to throw back to me, you're just so who gives the better sacrifices in your family? My sister's just all round better. Her job is a therapist. She really's a clinical social worker, uh creative arts therapist. She does. And she's, yeah, she's So you can't you don't even have that over her. Classic older, classic older sister who has to overfunction to make up for everyone under functioning. Classic. She's the glue that holds it all together. She's the one that will do shabbat, stick her hand up a chicken's ass, like, yeah, you know, with lemon and herbs, and like I wanted to.

SPEAKER_06:

I thought that was like I thought that was just the susman thing of like you guys have invented a ritual.

SPEAKER_02:

The day I saw her do that, I was like, oh my god, you are such an adult.

SPEAKER_05:

I don't want to do that, I haven't done that yet.

SPEAKER_02:

Like she'll do that, and I just show up and no hands up butts. Yeah, so she's no hands up butts, did you say? Like I can't even this, I can't. This is how much of a princess I actually am. No, the one way that being a princess manifests manifests in my life, maybe the only way, I can't eat a whole chicken if I've I can't find it.

SPEAKER_06:

No one's no one's asking you to eat a whole chicken.

SPEAKER_02:

I can't eat a chicken if I've seen it as a chicken naked. I put shame on that chicken is there and I am at it, and I can't eat it. But I'll eat it if it's like a fillet that's completely disassociated with it.

SPEAKER_06:

So you can wait, so you can't eat if the chicken is placed whole on the table in front of you, already cooked. Can you cut off a leg and eat it?

SPEAKER_02:

I don't like to, no.

SPEAKER_06:

So you have to have someone prepare it outside. Oh, you are so high maintenance. I mean, I'll be youngest siblings, am I right? Yeah, go.

SPEAKER_02:

Since I've had kids, things have changed a lot. I've seen some shit.

SPEAKER_06:

Because I used to not be able to touch raw chicken because it freaked me out.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

And then my mum just bullied me to the point of I was like, okay, I'll get over it. She's like, well, you mean gloves or pussy? And I'm like, yes.

SPEAKER_05:

That's what I was doing. I was like, yes, please, I do.

SPEAKER_06:

Now I just touch it and then it's like, you know, when you you touch it, and then you immediately wash your hands under the sink with like like that?

SPEAKER_05:

Yes. And then you do it again.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. And then you immediately. Yeah, yeah. So I'm like that.

SPEAKER_06:

But I get it done.

SPEAKER_02:

You know?

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Jacob, does he ever touch a raw chicken?

SPEAKER_06:

No, I don't know. I don't ask questions about his personal life.

SPEAKER_02:

Alright, it's time for everyone's favourite.

SPEAKER_06:

Favourite game? We'll be calling it this week. Because we decided we're not landing on a name.

SPEAKER_02:

No, what do you want to call it?

SPEAKER_06:

Um, let's call it uh Adam's shame. Oh, another point. Can I make it? Yeah. What fruit was on the tree? Everyone knows this now because it's like an internet little thing. Incorrect.

SPEAKER_02:

So she doesn't eat an apple?

SPEAKER_06:

Uh the text just says fruit of the tree. We don't know what kind of tree it was.

SPEAKER_02:

Really?

SPEAKER_06:

And the rabbis say, some say that it was like dates. Some rabbis say that it was grapes and they made wine and drank the wine. There's a bunch of different fruits that it could be a pomegranate, I think, was one of them, but none of them say an apple.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. So someone just said apple and we ran with that.

SPEAKER_06:

No, I think it was in art. I think it's like Renaissance art depicted it as an apple, but I could have made that up. I'm ashamed to admit I don't know the history of it being an apple.

SPEAKER_02:

There you go.

SPEAKER_06:

Anyway, what's on Adam's Shame today?

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. It's this one. It's in a group which you need to describe without mentioning the group.

SPEAKER_06:

Did I send this to you? You did. Nice. It's my favorite group on the internet. I will not tell you the name of it because if I get kicked out of it, I will cry. And I will never forgive Tammy Sossman for this. Anyway, so it's a group, it's only women. And this person asks, uh, tips on conceiving a female, please. Which I like because usually it's tips for how do I have a boy? But she wants a girl.

SPEAKER_02:

You know why she wants a girl?

SPEAKER_06:

Why?

SPEAKER_02:

Because she needs someone to help her clear the table after Shabbat when all of her sons. Ah, shame. Ah, shame.

SPEAKER_06:

Shame. Are we reading all of the posts? Yeah. So the top one is IVF, which makes sense. Got 21 likes. The only foolproof way someone else says. And then someone else says, unless all your embryos were boys. And I kind of hate that person because it's like, shut up.

SPEAKER_02:

I have a lot of empathy for that person.

SPEAKER_06:

Well, no, because they used the emoji that looks like this, like smirking emoji.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, okay. Someone else writes, okay, not popular, but when I looked back, it was actually correct. With all four pregnancies exclamation mark, it's the Chinese calendar. Age of mother plus month of conception. If it's an odd number, then boy. Even number equals girl. Not scientific at all, but if you look it up, it's highly accurate.

SPEAKER_06:

What's crazy about that is that I feel like all forms of idol worship and of Oda Zoro go out the window when it comes to things like this in conception. Because in what world are Jewish from people following the Chinese zodiac?

SPEAKER_02:

In this world.

SPEAKER_06:

Just in this one.

SPEAKER_02:

Someone else writes, doven for what you need. Someone else tops that with their moral superiority and says, which is a healthy mother and child. Someone else says, yes, but we can also doven for the desires of our heart.

SPEAKER_05:

Beautiful. Love it.

SPEAKER_02:

Whimsical, you might say. Love it. Yeah. Um I don't don't know if we'll keep this in, but then someone else writes, and that worked well with me when my dad died of cancer. What a bad. Debbie Downer. Then they wrote SMH. Is that like something? Shake my head.

SPEAKER_06:

Or Sydney Morning Herald.

SPEAKER_02:

I thought it maybe it was something from like BH.

SPEAKER_06:

No, it's like Shake My Head. Shake my head. Alright.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, I really am. You can keep going with these comments.

SPEAKER_06:

Eat a lot of watermelon. Look up the shuttles method. My ho I don't know what that is. I don't know what it is either. My housekeeper swears that the houses where the men wears box briefs versus boxes have boys. It's true in my house. See, I like that one because she doesn't want to say my husband wears briefs. She says, It's true in my house. And then she talks about sperm.

SPEAKER_02:

So you don't want to talk about sperm.

SPEAKER_06:

No. Um you know what's really interesting though, I found out apparently IVF babies are more likely to be boy babies.

SPEAKER_02:

Really?

SPEAKER_06:

Something like 53% of IVF babies are boy babies.

SPEAKER_02:

Isn't that crazy? Yeah. Did you read that? Did the Korean Torah?

SPEAKER_06:

No, my friend said it to me, and then I didn't believe her, so we looked it up.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

There you go.

SPEAKER_06:

How do you make sure your babies are a certain gender? Let us know in the comments below.

SPEAKER_02:

Amazing. That's it for today's show.

SPEAKER_06:

You have been watching andor listening to Ashamed to Admit with me, Shoshana Gottlieb Becker. And you, Tammy Sussman.

SPEAKER_02:

This episode was brought to you by the Jewish Independent with Aliway Productions. The vocalist in our theme song is Sariga L, and there are more credits in the show notes.

SPEAKER_06:

And hey, if you enjoyed this episode, review it. Give us a like. Tell a friend about it. Tell a colleague about it. Unless you're one of my colleagues, then please don't mention it to my face.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you so much. And see you next week.