Being Jewish is a Spectrum

‘Being Jewish’ is a spectrum and Australian Jewry is not exempt. Our international listeners were curious to know what different branches of Judaism exist in Australia and as usual Shoshana & Tami are here for you. A note to our Aussie audience: if they made a mistake explaining your personal experience of your particular denomination - leave a comment below! 

This episode was filmed and edited by Alleyway Productions 

Watch it on YouTube

The vocalist in the theme song is Sara Yael 

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Transcript

Opening Banter And 21 Adar

SPEAKER_00 0:00

It's changed to ask, it's changed to admit do we question This is it, this is it. Why is wicked support? We'll open up the books. The ark will open up your cynical art. No such a thing as a dumb question. Okay, that's mostly true. Tammy and Jushama here for you. Ashamed to admit. A shame to ask.

SPEAKER_02 0:33

It's everything you didn't get in Jewish studies class.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Hi everyone. Welcome back to Asham to admit, a Jewish independent podcast. I'm Tammy Sussman.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

I am Shoshana Gottliebka.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

Hey Shoshana. It's the 21st of Adar today. Were you aware?

SPEAKER_02 0:49

I I know.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

I'm really into the Jewish calendar now.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

You're into it?

SPEAKER_01 0:53

You got me into it.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

You're welcome. Thank you. A trendsetter.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Do you know what Jewish communities around the world do on the 21st of Adar?

SPEAKER_02 1:06

No, I don't. It's not Purim. It's a kind of Purim. Oh. So this is what I've done.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

I'm ashamed to admit I don't know what happened on the 21st of Adar. Alright, so some Jewish communities around the world commemorate what they call Purim Narbonne, which is when we remember the rescue of the city's Jews from a violent riot in the year 1236.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Following the intervention by the governor of Narbonne. So what happened was Narbonne's in France, and we're in 1236, and from memory there's a fisherman, a Jewish fisherman, and a non-Jewish fisherman. And the Jewish fishermen and the non-Jewish fishermen get into a fight, and the Jewish fisherman, I've said that way too many times, accidentally kills the Gentile fishermen.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

Like Cain and Abel, but for fish. I mean.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

And then the the city's population decide to take it out on the Jews. Classic. Classic. So um the governor of Narbonne did something. He intervened.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

That's nice.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

He came good. Nice. Yeah, he did the bare minimum, but what these days we really appreciate is he said you shouldn't do that.

SPEAKER_02 2:31

Kill those Jews.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Yeah. Nice. And I'm pretty sure he even brought in some people that like the army or something to protect them.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

You could tell me anything right now, and I'd be like, great.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

Sounds legit. So am I teaching you something this episode?

SPEAKER_02 2:46

There you go.

What Was Judaism In 1236 France

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Bound to happen eventually. At some point. So Shoshona Gottlieb Becker. My question for you is what type of Judaism were the Jews of France in 1236 practicing? Fantastic question. Like Hasidic?

SPEAKER_02 3:02

No.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Reform?

SPEAKER_02 3:04

No.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Mazordi?

SPEAKER_02 3:06

No. Um, they would be practicing Ashkenazi Judaism.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

Um, and the answer is they're practicing something that resembles orthodoxy in some way. It's not called that because as far as I know, from what I've learned, Orthodoxy as a means of retaining and conserving tradition arises in reaction to reform. So we can assume that until there was the opposition, let's say, using air quotes if you're listening only, until there was the opposition of reform, we can assume they were in little towns and they're going about their day and they're just practicing halacha and living their lives as little Orthodox Jews.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

Probably wearing a hat.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

Okay. But not the fairy hat, the the straight shrimp.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

No, that's like more strive. Nice, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

That's more Soviet, like Russian Empire. Okay. 16th century-esque. Because it was cold. Because it's cold, but also it it is what the upper class of the Russian Empire were wearing. Oh. And so it's supposed to emulate royalty and wealth.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

But you're doing that for God.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

Alright.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

Yeah.

Setting Up Australia’s Denominations

SPEAKER_01 4:26

So far you've mentioned quite a few denominations or affiliations or group chats under GCs, yeah. The Jewish umbrella. So today's episode, we're going to get into the main Jewish denominations in Australia, which is where we record this podcast. Yes. Because one of your followers was curious to know if what are the differences between here and other parts of the world? So what are the different types of denominations in Australia?

SPEAKER_02 5:05

Australian jewelry, I think, is one of the most unique jewelries in terms of how we how the different sorts of Jewish practice permutates as it encounters the Australian identity, I think is really interesting. So, and again, this is all as far as I know, right? So I feel like I have to disclaim it every time that it's my opinion. It does not reflect, you know.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

The opinion of all Jews in Australia.

Reform In Australia Versus America

SPEAKER_02 5:32

It might not even reflect facts sometimes. Because maybe I get things wrong. Who knows? As far as I understand, reform in Australia is slightly different to reform in America because they're in different places, you know, and they are evolving in different places and they come under the same like banner, right? Like actual banner of like world progressive Judaism, but they are separate entities. And so one of the differences, one of the biggest things that separates orthodoxy from reform Jewry is the fact that and kind of this misnomer, reformed Jews accept patrilineal Jews as Jews, right? Jews born to a Jewish father instead of a Jewish mother. Yeah. In Australia, and again, maybe we should have Robert Ninio as a guest to prove me wrong, but as far as I understand, they don't actually accept patrilineal Jews, and there is still a form of conversion that patrilineal Jews have to go through in order to be considered Jewish.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

Okay, so what I know, and again, correct me if I'm wrong, I think Rabbi Nino, who you've mentioned, who's the female rabbi of Sydney's Eastern Suburbs Reform Synagogue, would accept patrilineal, but the Mazordi congregation within that would not.

SPEAKER_02 6:55

Okay, but they they function together as a single, as a kahila, right? And so from what I un again, we keep we we don't have to keep keep preempting from what I understand. I think everyone understands that it's what from what we understand. Okay. But it's when we say acceptance, it's not that you're gonna be barred from attending that congregation, but it's in order to be counted as a Jewish person in their community, kahila, there has to be some kind of formal process of conversion.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

You mean if they someone wants to have a Benei mitzvah there or wants to get married there? Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

So, and oftentimes it will involve study if they haven't been involved in community. Sometimes it's just like a ceremonial dunk. But there is still, and that's a really big difference from America and from England also. All of these different places have different timelines of how they are navigating what everyone assumes is a given in reform circles, which is patrilineal jewelry, which I think is interesting. But anyway, um, there are other differences with reform, right? It started a long time ago, it started in like the 19th century, I'm pretty sure, mid-19th century, at a time around the Enlightenment, right? So, like the European Enlightenment about science and individual freedoms and philosophy and nationalism, all these things are being conceived of in the broader secular world. And a bunch of Jews are like, Well, we should modernize, right? We are scientific men and women, I guess. And so let's bring it into this century. And again, from what from what I understand, uh it's to bring it to become more modern and more German, it becomes more Christian.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

And so the prayers are done in German instead of in Hebrew to make it more modern.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

Can you say that again? It was very quick.

SPEAKER_02 8:48

Sorry, the prayers are done in German instead of in Hebrew.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

The preser done.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

The prayers.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

The prayers are done.

SPEAKER_02 8:54

The preser done.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

The prayers are done in German.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

Ah.

Patrilineal Descent And Conversion

SPEAKER_02 8:58

If you understood me on my first time saying that, leave a comment below. The prayers are done in German instead of Hebrew to make it more accessible. The services are changed. I think maybe even the buildings resemble more church-like, church-esque. I don't know what the word is. There's a new thing called confirmation, which is introduced, which again, I'm I was not raised in reform circles, so a lot of the stuff and research I've done since childhood and early adulthood, I I'm missing bits and pieces. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 9:33

I'm like sort of There are gaps in knowledge as well.

SPEAKER_02 9:36

Because I'm not gonna lie to you, Orthodox people don't teach about reform. They don't because they don't like reform.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

Correct.

SPEAKER_02 9:41

There's big broigus, family broigus between the two, yeah. Anyway, so um, and then it goes to America and it sh it starts to evolve again there. And then, do you know how conservative Judaism is created, essentially?

SPEAKER_01 9:56

No. You mean conservative, which is different, yes.

SPEAKER_02 10:00

So we big C small C. Yes. Small C being when you have old fashion old-fashioned conservative views. Big C conservative Judaism is a branch of Judaism. Yeah, and the story goes, allegedly, that uh it's a broigus around food. Uh and it it's it's something called the Trafe Banquet, the Trafe banquet, where at a rabbinical school ordination banquet, gala dinner for the reform movement, they served non-kosher food. And it's not so there there was no pork, but they had shellfish, and they had other things that like frogs, legs, all these things that are really not kosher. And some rabbis there were like, this crosses a line, this is a Jewish institution, and look at what they're doing. We need something that's not reformed, they've gone too far. And I think it's really fascinating that that's the the instigator. Again, in this whole grandiose myth of stuff of Jewish life, that was the instigator for the the conservative movement to be born, where they say that tradition is really important, and we strive in some ways to retain halakha and traditional observance because that's still really important to us culturally and religiously and all of that stuff, but also we're bringing it into the modern world, and so conservative Judaism and masorti Judaism are the same in that. That's okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

That was gonna be my question.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

So masorti is the Hebrew word, and so it's used in Israel, it's used in Australia, I think in America, it's called still conservative. Um the thing in Israel though that's really funny is that masorti also just means tradition or traditional. And so if you ask a random Israeli on the street if they're masorti, they will say yes, but what they mean by that is they are a secular, traditional Jew, which is like the non-practicing orthodox kind of masorti. They are small M. Masorti, not big M. Masorti. Okay. So there's that confusion is just thrown in a little bit as well.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

Is it true that the majority of Israelis are secular? Yeah. A lot of people don't know that.

Enlightenment Roots Of Reform

SPEAKER_02 12:10

Yeah, yeah, most most Israelis are secular Israelis. Alright. Don't quote me on that. I really I'm just thinking the raw data. I do no, it makes sense that most of them are are Chiloni, are secular.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

I need to make a highlight through all of you saying, don't quote me on that.

SPEAKER_02 12:24

Don't quote me on that. No, I'm I I the reason I'm unsure is that I know that the in in Amdiniya's time, they're worried about sort of the population growth charts because Khilonim have or secular Israelis have children at slower rate or smaller rates than Kharedim do. Yes. Ultra Orthodox. And what does that mean when you're in a country where some of your citizens don't want to partake in conscription? Yes. And so that's why I like for a second I wasn't sure, but I'm pretty sure it's still that the secular are the majority. Okay. So are there any people that you're talking about? You can't say his name.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

Okay. Say it.

SPEAKER_02 13:06

Tammy's just read a name on the sheet and she can't say it.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

Rav Solovechik. Nice.

SPEAKER_02 13:12

Yeah. Rav Solovechik.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

So what's her story? His story?

SPEAKER_01 13:21

Oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 13:22

Rav isn't her first name. Okay. Rav means rabbi.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 13:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

Go.

SPEAKER_02 13:26

Go. Rav Solovechik is one of the modern orthodox, not creator of modern orthodoxy, but one of the biggest names in modern orthodoxy. So if we're talking about on one side of the religious spectrum, you've got the reform movement and then stuff left to the left of that. We don't really have that in Australia, like reconstructionist folk and all that. We don't really have that here. We've got reform, we've got orthodox on the other side. But then you've got modern orthodox, right? Because orthodoxy is the spectrum. In the middle.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

But hang on, what about the egalitarian, like in Sydney we have a Yalet Ha Shachar, and in Melbourne we have Kolano?

SPEAKER_02 14:06

Yeah, we can yeah, we can get there. Okay, but I'm saying wouldn't they be more I don't think I wouldn't call them left to reform. I would call them akin to reform. Oh, okay. They're not really organized denominations, right, in Australia at least. They are open to all. They believe in, you know, Jewish culture, tradition. I think most of their members would probably be secular.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 14:31

What other notes did I write?

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Do you want to go there now or come back to it?

The Treif Banquet And Conservative

SPEAKER_02 14:35

Let's come back to it. Alright, we'll circle back. We'll circle back because, yeah. So anyway, so you've got reform, I would say, on the left-hand side. You've got orthodox on the right, but orthodoxy is a spectrum. And modern orthodoxy has is also kind of its own thing, right? Because orthodoxy, it might sound controversial to say, but I said at the beginning, Orthodoxy a lot of the time, it feels really what's the word I'm looking for? Intense. Religion. No, it's reactionary. I would say that orthodoxy is somewhat reactionary, right? It sees a threat of modernity, it reacts to that. We have to hunker down, we have to make sure that we're retaining these traditions as as best we can, nothing from the outside, like that sort of cordoning off. Modern Orthodox people believe in this thing called Torah Umada, right? So it's Torah, but it's also knowledge. And so we can be practicing people, we can believe in God, we can have halakha as our guiding light in this world, but also we have to live in the modern world, right? It's literally like Torah and science at the same time. That is what we're working with. Um, and Raf Salovechik is a really big part of that in America, again in the 20th century. Rabbi Jonathan Sachs was really big that, right? He had something slightly different, Torah Ochma, which is that it's it's Torah wisdom, but it's also intellectualism in general, and making sure that we are very well read outside of the Jewish realm as well. Those things to be able to exist in this world and be functioning members of our society, that has to, we have to let in some level of modernity into our intellectual sphere. So that's a its own thing. But then modern orthodoxy is a really huge spectrum because you can have someone who, you know, keeps absolutely everything and then is an accountant and he sees himself as modern orthodox, but then you also have someone who eats vegan out or eats fish at restaurants, just won't eat the and they also call themselves modern orthodox, like spectrum. Yes. Um a lot of spectrums in Judaism, lots of spectrums in Judaism. So yeah, so that's that's modern orthodoxy. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

And then we've got on the other, the more religious end of the spectrum, would you say that then there's Hasidic or is that orthodox? So what's the most extreme?

SPEAKER_02 16:55

Okay, so orthodoxy is a label given to religious Jews, right? Um, and some and some there's orthodox union and things like that, but mostly it's it's a really big blanket term, and then you've got things like ultra-orthodox. Yes. Okay, so in Jewish words, we use the words like Kharedi. Haredi person is ultra-orthodox. Right. Um a Hasidic person is also ultra-orthodox, right? They all fall under that banner, they're just practicing different versions of a very intense religious existence. Okay. But Hasidism or Chasidot is its own kind of religious practice that sprang up again in like the 17th, 18th century.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Okay.

Modern Orthodoxy And Torah U’Madda

SPEAKER_02 17:38

In Eastern Europe, Russian Empire, Ukraine, that kind of area, led by a man named the Balshemtov. And so what happened is that he's the one guy he invents this concept of Chasidis, which is Jewish mysticism built on things like Kabbalah. It's supposed to make taking a step back, there's a different guy called Shaptai Tsvi, who was a false messiah. Maybe we can do an episode on him. I love that guy. Take a step back again. No, okay. So basically in Europe, there's this whole thing that happens where uh rabbis, I'm just time-checking myself as well. Rabbis cancel the concept of mysticism and Kabbalah. They say it's too dangerous, we're not allowed to do that anymore, we're gonna become very rigid, very intellectual, nothing wishy-washy, nothing about nothing emotional. This is like an intellectual pursuit of religion. And then what happens is like a however many years pass, and it it is that religion becomes inaccessible for people who can't afford to send their sons to yeshiva, right? And it's about only the people who can read the books can connect. And then it sort of reverts back. You've got a guy named the Balshemtov who makes it about the joy, the emotion, song, the beauty of the world and nature connecting to God through that as well. Musical theatre kid. Exactly. His name's the Balshemtsov. Balshemtsov just means master of the good name, nice guy, and he has lots of disciples all around, and then each of his disciples have disciples, and then it kind of spreads out. So you have all of the these different kinds of chasides or chasidut, all come back from this guy, but they've all branched off into their own practice. And an example of that, the one of the probably one of the most famous uh chasidis groups. Can I guess? Chabad? Yes. So they're like they can trace back to the Alta Rebbe, who's a student of, a disciple of the disciple of, like the grand disciple of the Balshamtov.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

I was actually talking about Chabad at a Shabbat dinner a week ago, and I because I just took for granted Chabad, but I was talking to someone in his almost 70, and he said, Yeah, they completely after their arrival in Sydney, Australia, he they completely changed the landscape of So Chabad's so fascinating because it's different to all other Chasidises, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:00

So other Chasidises you might have heard of are something like Satmer Chasidim, Ger Chasidim, there's so like so Wikipedia, like different Chasidic dynasties, and there's like a hundred names. My family like Romanian, so like my family used to be Satmer Chasidim. Um most Hasidic communities are really insular. It's about protect again, it's like that orthodox thing about protecting our way of life, we're closing ourselves off. Yes. Chabad opens those gates. Open door policy, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:34

Free-for-all.

SPEAKER_02 20:36

No, not a free-for-all. It's about trying to bring bring people into religion, right? And then they view their whole purpose is to bring people closer to religion through chabad, like chubad levels of religiousness, but it's that open door policy, and so they go out into the world and they try to make you like the Bal Shem Tov, they try to make it as accessible to the average person as possible. And that's why you have when you travel to Bali a Chabad house there because they want you traveling there, or if you are an expert living in Hong Kong or wherever it is, if there is not Jewish community there, they want you to have access to it.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

In Melbourne, there is a community called Adas.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

So they would be Kharedi.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

Yeah, so we don't have that in Sydney.

SPEAKER_02 21:19

There isn't a dust shawl in Sydney, but we don't kind of have that flavour of Kharedi.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Yeah.

Haredi, Hasidic, And Misnagdic Lines

SPEAKER_02 21:24

Who aren't so when you go back to the Balsemtov who came about because um he believed that, you know, the accessibility of it all, you've also got this group called Misnagdin, or separating it out. So intellectual Judaism, emotional Judaism, and I'm pretty sure that Kharedim, Adas Haredim are like this Litvish kind of more intellectual kind of Judaism. It's just all these different places, right? So they are ultra Orthodox, but they dress differently to how like Hasidish people dress because it they they don't follow a specific Like they don't follow that mysticism of Chasidis. Okay. It's like it's an intellectual pursuit.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Right. I think what we've established is that there are lots of ways to be Jewish in Australia.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

So many.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

What have I forgotten?

SPEAKER_02 22:15

Were we gonna circle back to Yeah, we were gonna circle back to you asked about like our yellow egal stuff. Yeah. So the difference between egal and um humanist? Yeah, like I just didn't think of them as it's not that they're illegitimate, it's they don't have a governing body. They're very lay-led, but they're egal, everyone's invited, it's open to all. They're not, as far as I know, attached to a single movement the same way that other people are.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

They could I'm happy to prove me wrong, but like, and then and the thing is, is it's open to all, but this is also what happens in egalitarian spaces, right? It's very music-based and it's Shabbat services, and they use instruments for their Shabbat services. So if you happen to be on the more orthodox end of the spectrum, you don't necessarily feel comfortable going there. So the biggest question with Jewishness and denomination, and how do we build spaces that cater to all is that it's really hard to because you're gonna cut someone out somewhere. Either you say, Well, instruments are a must, so that means that people who are orthodox aren't don't have this space because they have other spaces, or you say, Okay, we'll cater to that, no instruments, but then you have people who who want that to connect and who are secular and don't see that as you know a guiding force in their life that no instruments on Chabbas kind of vibes.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:36

So I do think it's impossible to have a fully egalitarian space. Okay, but that's just me.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

Have you ever thought of starting a completely new branch of Jewish practice congregation?

SPEAKER_02 23:48

I think I often think I might be a good cult leader.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 23:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

So you've thought about it?

SPEAKER_02 23:54

I think I've thought about it.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Do you have a good business mind as well?

SPEAKER_02 23:57

No, so that's the thing. I come up, like I'm an ideas person. Uh, I need a producer. Yeah. So I'm happy to be like the face of the cult. But if someone wants to if if someone wants to produce my cult, you're looking at her, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:12

Because I would make a bad cult leader because But you can produce it. Yeah. Because introvert and I can only talk to people for 90 minutes and then I'm so tired.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

The true answer is Sky would lead, my wife would lead the cult. Right. Um No, I think I could I it would be a small cult, so I don't have to talk to so many people, but I also think that's a good cult leader. I'm not one of those really friendly outgoing ones, I'm one of the mysterious ones you want to get to know more, and I just don't talk to you.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

One way of putting it.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Um, I have a question. I have lots of questions, but we're running out of time. As usual. Classic.

SPEAKER_02 24:49

Um I have dinner to get to.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

So, Ian, you do. But we should also mention, because this question was about denominations in Australia, we do have Sephari synagogues, which aren't a den different denomination, but they would be culturally slightly different.

Chabad’s Open Door And Global Reach

SPEAKER_02 25:07

Yeah, so as far as I know, I don't belong to the Sefati synagogues here. They again I assume they consider themselves orthodox. Oh, I wouldn't say in practice, they're modern orthodoxy. Or modern orthodox, yeah, but safari. It's just a different tradition.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:23

But in terms of how they're practicing and the standards they hold themselves to, it's orthodox. It's just safari.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

Question. I have a friend, male, who was engaged to female partner. My friend was Jewish, is Jewish, female partner at the time wasn't Jewish and was planning to convert reform. Male friend grew up in a modern Orthodox synagogue, and the rabbi said to him, I would prefer for you to marry non-Jew than someone who's converted reform.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

That's icky to me.

SPEAKER_01 26:01

Yeah, but I f is that a common kind of feeling in Australia, or is that just one rabbi that's just really broigus?

SPEAKER_02 26:10

No, I think like unfortunately, there's a lot of reform hate in Australia. I describe I said it to reform rabbi's faces that there's the reform ick that gets like passed generationally through modern Orthodox and Orthodox institutions. So that even the thought of associating for some people with something reform is like uh like icky.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:32

Which I don't like.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

I I don't like it either.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

Yeah, I think that we enough people hate us that we don't need to be hating each other, right? Sinat khinnam, baseless hatred's not so nice. Um I can't tell you if that's a common what that rabbi said, I don't know if that's particular to him, if other people would hold the same views.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

Alright. I don't even know if I should leave this in the episode because it might be like perpetuating. I don't know. Like it's hard.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

Hard to know whether to keep it in or No, it's it's hard to navigate such animosity. You know? Yeah. I think more and more people are looking for something that resembles the masoty synagogue in Australia. Right? I think we've spoken about this idea of the non-practising orthodox person. Yes. And I think people who think deeply about themselves as Jewish people but aren't necessarily buying into a world that is, you know, kind of run by patriarchy and certain levels and ideals. They want something different, more modern. I think that they would actually feel super comfortable in the Massorti synagogue. As someone who has gone through this journey myself, yeah. Because there's it's at it's at reform. Yes. It's at it's with the reform ones.

Australian Flavours: Adass And Sydney

SPEAKER_01 27:59

It's out of bounds.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

And so I and it's and it's a shame because so many people are looking for ways to connect to their Jewishness, and because they don't want to touch reform, they just like get into Holocaust education. You know what I mean? Like that's the only other thing you can do, is in this city.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Yeah. Like so if any of our critics accuse us of the city.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

Oh my god, we're gonna get cancelled.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

A reform agenda. No. I was gonna say we absolutely are. Oh yeah. I don't push agenda. You just express your own personal experience. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

I got married in the Masordi by a Masori rabbi at the um in a manual.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

A manual synagogue, manual synagogue.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

That is something that my partner and I discussed, my wife and I discussed. We know that we can't live in modern Orthodox spaces, right? We don't necessarily want to live modern orthodox, you know, a life as a couple in that way. I still keep Halacha in a modern Orthodox way, in my own way, but we're a lesbian couple, you know.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

But your wife does uh quite often wear long skirts.

SPEAKER_02 29:17

Oh, she dresses like a Robertson. My friends laugh at me that I have I have found a lesbian Rebuttson. Like they're like, there's something psychological happening here that your wife dresses like that and you went through an all-girl school system. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, very obviously something's happened. But she's always dressed like that. That's the funny thing. Anyway, you manifested that. Maybe we can get permission to post a photo of her in her most Haredi outfit. She also just looks so like so Hasidish sometimes, and she wears like those head wraps to dry her hair, and then so I have a photo of her, and like and it's like she's wearing a tank top and a long flowing skirt, and then this little wrap. The microfiber, yeah, and I go in and I black out her arms to make her look even more from like I add sleeves, and she looks like a Hasidish wife. It's hilarious.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

Good for you.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

Good for me.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

Okay, so today apparently we're playing Charme.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

Yeah, Charme.

Egalitarian And Lay-Led Spaces

SPEAKER_01 30:19

Or no Charme? Charme, no Charme. Okay, Charme, no Charme. Everyone's favourite segment.

SPEAKER_02 30:24

It is from a Jewish Australian group, is what you can say.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

That's all I can say.

SPEAKER_02 30:29

So this is from a Jewish Australian group.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

You need to describe the picture.

SPEAKER_02 30:36

The picture is a plate with three hot cross buns on them. Okay. I remember when this happened live. This was happening in multiple groups, everyone was talking about it, it was the funniest thing in the world. It is beyond acceptable. A chilul hashem, a chilul hashem is a desecration of God's name, that the rabbis of a certain kashwurr agency can certify a Roman Catholic Christian religious celebrated food, such as hot cross buns, and then encourage Jews to buy and eat them. I write this as one raised Catholic and as a convert. And then it's like or still in the times of Facebook where you could add a feeling to your post, and then it says, Bloch emoji, feeling disgusted. Cinema. Theatre. Perfection. It was, and their first comment was also I don't remember the comment section. Perfection. It was create when that was happening, when they first certified hot crossbuns as kosher, people were going nuts. How dare you do this? That is it like you can't.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

Oh, was that a common response?

SPEAKER_02 31:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah. In a bunch of different kosher groups. Like a lot of people had that sentiment. It's just a delicious sweet bun. It's not even that good.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

Well, the rain It's not even that I I had one, not even that good. You're gonna upset a lot of people. It is to me, it does taste like raisin toast, which is just not for me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:06

I under it's just so funny. We have bigger fish to fry. The reason why we have more fish to gefilter than hot cross buns.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

The reason why I did like the first comment or the top rating comment was because someone wrote with respect, original poster. Perhaps as a convert you are much more inclined to find this offensive than. Oh, that's charif. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:30

That's hot, uh spicy. That is no, I think a lot of people I know who were born and raised as Jews also were like, How dare they? And then you have most people who are normal and were like, mmm, delicious new snack I can get from Coles. Hooray.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

Brilliant. Good one. A good one. All-time classic. Classic. Slay. I'm not allowed to say it, am I?

SPEAKER_02 32:55

I mean you can say whatever you want.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

You can say it. That's it for today's show.

The Limits Of One-Size-Fits-All

SPEAKER_02 33:01

You have been watching andor listening to I always look at you. I'm getting bullied on my own podcast.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

We'll start again.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

That's it for today's show. You have been watching andor listening to Ashamed to admit, with me, Shoshana Gottliebe, and you, Tammy Sussman.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

If you enjoyed today's episode, please.

SPEAKER_02 33:29

That's my line.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

This episode was brought to you by the Jewish Independent with Aliwei Productions. The vocalist in our theme song is Sarah Yeel, and there are more credits in the show notes.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

If you enjoyed this episode or any other episode, if you are a rabbi who wants to yell at us, if you want recommendations for where to go to Shaw, leave a comment, leave a review, and let us know what you think.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

Thank you so much. I'll do it here. Thank you so much, and see you next week.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

Bye.