The Jewish Wedding Special (Part 2)

It’s the Jewish Wedding Special Part 2! There was just so much content to get through in Episode 9 … Shoshana and Tami promised you a sequel, so here it is. In part 2, Tami & Shoshana discuss the 7 blessings, the 7 circles, pre-marital fornication and they disagree on what contemporary Jewish trends are essential/annoying. Lady Gaga also makes it into the chat. Plus, someone in a Jewish Facebook group wants to know how his partner can convert to Judaism without doing any study. 

This episode was filmed and edited by Alleyway Productions 

You can watch the full episode on YouTube

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The vocalist in the theme song is Sara Yael @iamsarayael

Transcript

Cold Open And Unpopular Opinions

SPEAKER_00 0:00

A shame to ask, ashamed to admit, got dewy, dewy questions. This is it, this is it. Why is wicked simple are unsure how to ask? We'll open up the books, the ark will open up your cynical heart. No such a thing as a dumb question. Okay, that's mostly true. Dammi and Shoshana are here for you. Ashamed to admit.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Ashamed to ask. It's everything you didn't get in Jewish studies class. Hello! And welcome back to another episode of Ashamed to Admit. I'm Shoshana Gottlieb Becker, and I am not ashamed to admit that I hate it when at a Jewish wedding you break the glass and then everyone cheers. That's my least favorite thing about the wedding ceremony. Unpopular opinion. And this is my co-host and sometimes nemesis, writer and marriage celebrant Tammy Sossman.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

And I'm not ashamed to admit that one or more of the couples that I have married over the past 12 years is now divorced. And the reason why I'm not ashamed to admit that is because people ask me, oh, have any of the couples you've married divorced? Like it's somehow my responsibility.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Do you have to charge less now that you have some divorces under your belt?

Jewish Wedding Special Part Two

SPEAKER_02 1:33

Again, I am not their couple's counsellor. I am their marriage celebrant. I'm not engaged in the service of officiating their wedding or their marriage because I think that they are well suited to each other. So you're doing it just for the check. I'm not invested in whether the marriage works out. What I'm invested in is that they have a freaking good wedding. Uh-huh. Anyhow. Anyhow. The reason why marriage is on our mind, weddings and such, is because today we are. We're about to talk Jewish weddings. This is our Jewish wedding special.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Part two. This is the first we never had a sequel before. It's true. We have enough episodes that now we have a sequel episode. That's so fun.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

We couldn't get through all the info in our first Jewish wedding episode. I thought we got through it all, but apparently not. We didn't. Okay. No. So if you haven't listened to that, go back to episode nine, listen to that one. Speaking of the number seven, I think the reason why seven was on my mind.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

You'd seen it written in the notes like five times.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Yeah. Is because seven is a significant number in Jewish mysticism in Kabbalah. Seven is a significant number. And did you just make that song up now? No, I didn't. And it's a significant number in the context of Jewish weddings. Yeah. So in our first episode, um I mentioned, or you mentioned that the did you mention the circling seven times, or you just mentioned the three parts to a Jewish wedding?

SPEAKER_01 3:10

I can't remember. It's been a long time since episode nine.

Why Seven Shows Up Everywhere

SPEAKER_02 3:13

Okay. Well, in our notes, you have here that traditionally the bride circles the groom seven times. Yes, that's what's happened. That happens. And that seven represents perfection or completeness, completeness and holiness.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Are we just gonna read our show notes for the rest of the episode? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

So is this something I mean, people who who may have been to a Jewish wedding might have seen that, that there's some circling that takes place.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

Well, there's actually there's lots of sevens. There's a handful of sevens to do with Jewish weddings.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

And it's in the Jewish wedding because it's stipulated in the Torah or because it's just become kind of uh it's a custom from the Talmud.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Okay. Yeah. Because again, the only thing that's kind of in the Torah is um the Kiddushin stuff. Yeah. Right. And we spoke about that, like the three you can get married by monetary transaction or through uh a document that intends like your intentions of marriage, or actually like through like consummating the marriage. Yeah, that's all like the Torah stuff. Anything else is later Talmudic cultural like um customs that have been brought out. Okay. But yeah, seven, so seven's an important number. You'll hear it a lot. And seven in Judaism, like you've already read so so nicely, site read. Um, seven is wholeness, completeness, right? There's the seven days of creation, which is you know that the full natural world. You've got the schmitta cycle. So in Jewish, in the in all of like the laws, you let the land rest every seven years. Is that what schmitta means? Yeah. So every seventh year of produce is a rest year. Okay. It's called Schmittah, and then there's a an overall like 49, 50 year cycle outside of that. So seven has there's clearly an importance of the natural world, is sevens. And then there's other sevens that come up. The rabbis say that like every seventh is blessed. Which means that, you know, the seventh day is Shabbat, it's blessed. The seventh year is the Shmitta year, it's blessed. That they have this genealogical list from Adam to whoever comes after. It's like the seventh one's the best one. Like it's it's like all these different things, like that. Um, and so we circle seven times, and it's about like create, like it's the wholeness and completeness of the relationship. Currently, like nowadays, if you go to more feminist ceremonies, progressive ceremonies, sometimes they'll share the load. So the girl will circle, the girl, the woman, the bride will circle three times, the groom will circle three times. Three times, and then they circle. And then they circle. So the circling each other is so weird. We did that. Sky walked around me a fourth time, and I just like did a netball pivot on the spot, and everyone laughed. Like, there's not so much space under a chuppa for you to both like circle each other. What is it? Like the it looks like the Lion King. It does.

SPEAKER_02 6:10

So my couples usually they'll like hold hands and circle the chuppa ones together.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

We did like I did three, Sky did three, and then Sky walked around me, and I just like pivoted on the spot.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

There are different ways of doing that. I really like that because it used to be the this idea that the the man, the groom, was the center of the home and the woman was the homemaker, and so she's circling him.

Rings, Ketubahs, And Witnesses

SPEAKER_01 6:32

Yeah. My one of the fun, I think one of the funniest jokes I made is um when my friend, I had two friends who are married. And during our youth group days, it was like we were like three best friends, and I was like their third wheel, and they started dating. And when they were getting married, my friend asked me, she goes, What do we do for the seventh one? Right? Because it's it's it's this un an uneven number. And I said, I'll do it. You do three, group does three, I do one. Did you? Yeah, so that's the the first seven is the circling. You have the Sheba Brachot, which are the seven blessings that happen under the khapa, and they're really and it but also again to do with creation and wholeness, right? So this still tied with the seven days of creation. Because like three of the blessings are like blessed are you God who created man, blessed are you God who created Adam and Eve, and their union together. And so it's and it's so it's evoking this idea of creation and God as a partnership in humanity. And then at the reception at the end of the meal, you say the same seven blessings. The sheva brachot, you say those when you bench, when you do like the grace after meals. So you build that into it. And then after the wedding, there's the custom that you have sheva brachot again, seven blessings. So you like you have seven different meals after the wedding, in the week after the wedding. And at each of those special meals, you're saying the same seven blessings again when you're doing the grace after meals.

SPEAKER_02 7:59

Okay, you said something about in the last episode that to be married, there's either a monetary transaction, a document which states the intention, his intention to marry the Kettleba. And then sex. Yeah. I vaguely remember you mentioning that, but I don't think you got into it in our first episode.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Yeah. So according to our tradition, when you get married in the civil world, you sign a document that and and it's a judge or whoever like can is able to sign off on marriage as a celebrant, that's you. Yes. That legally makes you married. Yes. Right? Is it just the signing of the document or you have to exchange?

SPEAKER_02 8:44

No, it's it's signing the document with two witnesses, and it's a verbal, there's a verbal vow.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Yeah, that's all you need, and then you're considered married. Yep. The same way, in according to Jewish laws, there's three ways that like cinch that marriage. Okay. So you only have to do, I think, one of those three things.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

Oh, that's what's my question. Do you have to do one, two, three, or well, you I think you have to do three, but even doing just one is considered that you're married. So this is what surprised me. So are you saying that many, many years ago, if you if you had sex with someone, you were considered married to them.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

It's sex with the intention of consummating a dedicated relationship. Right. Yeah. So it's not just like if you're a slut and you're going around like stupping everyone in town, you're not married to all those people. Yeah. But like you're having sex with someone with the intention that you're entering into a committed relationship with them. Okay. But that's the thing. The rabbis said that that actually doesn't count towards like that doesn't define the marriage alone. All right. Right? Um, because the other things have to be witnessed. And this is what we spoke about a bit in the last episode. If it's a monetary transaction, you have to, you have to have a witness, the same way you have to have a witness, witness a signature. Yeah. You have to have a witness watch that transaction. Yeah. And the way that that plays out is that the in a traditional ceremony, the groom has a ring. That's the monetary value that he's he's using to buy the bride. Yeah. And he puts it on her finger in front of the witnesses. Yeah. So if you've ever been to a more religious wedding or one that's run by a rabbi, um, they'll they put the the ring. Well, we said this last time, we put the ring on the index finger because it's the most visible finger. Yeah. But the rabbi also makes sure to call forward the witnesses to watch it take place. Right. Right. Because it has to be, again, like in the secular, witnessed. The same thing with the with the document, that's a kutzubah. You have to watch someone sign it. You can't, it's, it's, it's not modest to watch two people have sex. Right. The rabbi said that so that that doesn't, and again, like they said um that it's it's just not done anymore.

SPEAKER_02 10:56

It's not modest, but it happens more often than people care to admit. Sex. Watching people have sex. That is pornography.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

Oh, I was like, what? Hell yeah, porn is a thing. Yeah, for a second I lived in a pornless world. I totally forget the concept of pornography. Okay. Um you had a question. I did. At the very bottom.

Premarital Sex And Women’s Worth

SPEAKER_02 11:25

Sex before, during, and after marriage. Why forbidden?

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. So sex before marriage.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

Is it forbidden? Is your question.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

No, so I know it's forbidden, but I'd like to know when. Like, when did it become forbidden?

SPEAKER_01 11:45

In the Torah, it's not forbidden.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

Ooh. Ooh. I think this moment needs more.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Let me stay again. Okay. In the Torah, there are stories of people having premarital sex or extramarital sex. Okay. Also in the Torah, when like I think it it again it echoes the secular world, right? A non-virgin can get married, and plenty of non-virgins did get married, but non-virgins are less like are worth half of what a virgin is worth. Oh. It literally just it all comes back to a woman's worth. How much is a like how much do I buy this lady for? And is that so premarital sex is it's discouraged because you're l physically worth more had you not had sex before you were married.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

But is that something that's in the Torah or is that just something that commentary? No.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

So again, if it's it's if it's in the Torah or it's in the Talmud, it's it's Jewish law. Okay. Right? Like that's the I don't have the exact like place where it's said, but like that's the accepted law. Right. Which again, it doesn't happen anymore because women women are metaphorically bought, right? We it's symbolic nowadays. But back then it was literally how much is your daughter worth, and if she's had sex, she's worth less. Uh, you're talking about dowries and stuff like that. Yeah, exactly. 100%. Okay. Um but we have we have literal st we have a story, and this is what I brought up because like it, you saw it happening all the time. One of our ancestors, maybe not all of our ancestors, but there's a guy who is an ancestor of the Jewish people. His name is Yehuda.

SPEAKER_02 13:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Judah. Is he the Maccabee? No. This is predates that biological. This is this is Yehuda is the son of Jacob, of Yaakov. So this is like pre-Egypt, back in the day, like we haven't even been through slavery yet.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

Oh, hang on. As in, is he one of Joseph's brothers, Yehuda?

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Yeah. Exactly. Okay. He has sex with a sex worker on literally on the side of the road, like at a motel. That's his whole story. So he's okay sleeping with someone who he's not married at the time. We know that she's not married technically, and he does like it's a whole story of like her. Um she like obscures her identity. But she she sleeps with him and they father children outside of marriage. They're not married at the time. Okay. They're descendant from that sleeping together, King David. Really? Yeah. So it's kind of like like it's not condoned, right? The the end of that story is that that woman is almost put to death, and then she's like, hey, he so long story. She he tries, he, she, she, she, he, she. Should I tell you the whole story from start to finish? No. Okay. She obscures her identity, sleeps with him, falls pregnant. He finds out who she finds out that his daughter-in-law, who's the woman that you know he slept with, but he didn't know who it was, finds out she's pregnant. He's like, slut, dead. You're gonna get put to death because I'm the leader of this town. She says, wait a second, you left this behind, and like holds up like his signifiers that she said, like that she took from him as payment, kind of. Oh. Receipts. Yeah. She was like, You left your hat at my place, is what she said. Yeah. And he was like, Oh, damn, okay, never mind, you're not put to death. Right. So it's not like it's condoned. Mm-hmm. In fact, she's almost killed for partaking in extramarital sex. Yes. But it's something that's happening. And the fact that you have the signifier of virgin non-virgin means that non-virgins were getting married, meaning that they were virgins, they were not virgins before they were married. You know what I mean? Like the fact that that category exists suggests that it's happening.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

In my generation, when we were dating, um, there was the common phrase said to us by our elders, and that was like, don't sleep with them, because then he won't buy the cow if he can get the milk for free.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Yeah, I've heard that too. It's yeah. Horrendous. Horrible. But I also think that just like we've built so much modern language around whether or not, you know, like to say, because you were like, you're not allowed to have sex before marriage. Yes. You said that. You thought that was like a commandment. I thought it was, yeah. Jews are encouraged to have sex all the time. But right, but we have like but we do it for the same.

SPEAKER_02 16:29

So you say that slower and into your camera.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

Like the Jews are encouraged, like literally, one of the first commandments we're given is be fruitful and multiply. How do you be fruitful and multiply, if not, you know, smooshing boots. Smooshing boots. Um, but there's like like but we've built all this beautiful language around doing it within a committed relationship and doing it for purpose and with intention and with someone that you love. And yeah, but at the end of the day, it's not like the forbiddenness still comes back to, in my opinion, what a woman's worth is at the time.

Purple Brides And Mandatory Compliments

SPEAKER_02 17:01

This is a major tangent because we're supposed to be focusing on Jewish weddings. But it is part of Jewish weddings. That's true. I have a whole list of things that annoy me about contemporary Jewish weddings, but before. I had a question that you asked me, yeah, and then I said, I don't know, did they?

SPEAKER_01 17:15

You said, Did Jewish brides traditionally wear purple? And I said, Did they?

SPEAKER_02 17:20

I read that somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Never read that in my life.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

Fact check. AJ, can you fact check that while we move on? I think originally they wore purple. I think they wore whatever was like common at the time.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Such as one of the. Oh yeah, what is that photo? I totally forgot that that was sitting there. Yeah. I want to look at it one sec. So Alright, this is AI overview.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

Uh will you allow it? Will you allow it, Shosh? Just for time's sake, I'll allow it. Okay. Yeah. No, Jewish brides did not traditionally wear purple.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

It's just what's common at the time, right? So, like we live in the Western world where for the past, I don't know, thousand years, brides have worn white to represent their purity and their virginity. So that's what we do.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

I think because purple was an expensive dye back in the day, and so your wedding day was the day when you're supposed to be Well, you also have like in like Yemenite Jewish culture, they wear huge headdresses and beautiful red, gold.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Yeah. But again, that's not like I don't think it's there's nothing that commands brides to wear something specific. You're more commanded to look and feel beautiful on your wedding day. Yeah. You know that there's a law in the Talmud that's like if a bride asks you if she looks good, you have to tell her yes. Like, like it's like you're bringing joy to a woman on their on or to a person on their wedding day. So you have to be like beautiful, honey.

SPEAKER_02 18:44

That's brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Yeah. I like that. All right. So why do all of these people have the exact same face?

SPEAKER_02 18:48

Yes, I know. Um, I so that is a a photo of my. I think the people watching will be confused because there's a photo on the other side, which they can see. So that is an image of my grandmother's grandmother and grandfather. So it's my great great grandmother, um, in Odessa in like the late 1800s, early 1900s. Angry to be there. That's the thing I love the most about it. They look so unimpressed. There is one person who is smiling. And I also love playing with this photo um twins or lovers. Like, there are a lot of queer people in that family, I just have to say. Like proven?

SPEAKER_01 19:39

No. Just by vibes. Just by vibes. Yeah. It kind of looks like you could copy and paste any one of these faces on the other ones, and none of the none of them change. They all look like the same person.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

Are you accusing my family of intermarriage with each other? Because it's possible.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

Are you avoiding saying the word incest for like algorithm reasons?

SPEAKER_02 20:00

No, I just forgot the word incest. Um, anyway, so yeah, that's the um, they're the people who who started a pickle factory. Wow. In Marrickville. Seth Rogan. It's Seth Rogan's film.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

Terrible film. But you know what it is though? What? I'll throw this in for free. A fantastic short story series. Simon Rich.

SPEAKER_02 20:23

Ah. Yeah. Oh, is that what the film's based on?

SPEAKER_01 20:25

The film is written by the person who wrote this series. I think it was for The New Yorker. Okay. It was like a six-part short story series. Yep. Fantastic. It is so good. So I had read it, my brother told me to read it like years and years ago, and they made it into the movie. Yeah. The movie's fine. It's not fine. It misses like all of the beauty of the short story. So that's like I nothing to do with Jewish weddings, but I will throw that in there. What's it called? An American fact check. One sec. La la la la la la. That's my music while I fact check. Ring ee dink ee dink ee dink. It's called Sell Out. 2013 Short Story Sell Out by Simon Rich.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

Highly recommend a read.

SPEAKER_02 21:09

Thank you. You're welcome. Alright. I think I'm gonna have a rant.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

Go for it. But I'm gonna disagree with part of your rant because I've already read it.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

Good go.

SPEAKER_02 21:21

There's a trend at Jewish weddings in Australia, and I've seen it from photos of people getting married in the United States, and I can't remember, I can't remember Israeli weddings, but it's something called Shtick. And that is when at some point during the wedding reception, everyone's on the dance floor, people start bringing out little plastic glasses, feather bowers, like just basically they go on a Timu or Shane buying binge fest, and they buy all this. Crap, which in my opinion does not contribute to the festivities. It does not make your dance floor more fun.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

No, but if you do it well, it does. I will also say, I'll push back that in a lot of places they have gemachs, which is like a sort of communal library for a specific thing. And so they have wedding gemachs, and so all of the shtick, you're borrowing it. Even worse because then it's already been done. No, it's better. Your whole thing is that it's it's like fast fashion shtick. Yeah, I know. That you're reusing it. I love it. I think it's good. The whole point, I I just said before, the whole point of the wedding, you're supposed to make the bride and groom happy on their wedding day. Okay. And that contributes to it for people. I think there are other ways to make the You know the best part of shtick is in my opinion. What? At a certain point in the evening, bride and groom get sat down on the dance floor like they are a king and queen, and all of the guests turn into jesters. Have you seen this? No. This is the best part, and this happens all over the world. And this is part of shtick, and this is part of like your goal is to entertain and make these people happy. So they literally sit them down on the dance floor, like the king and queen. Everyone else becomes the core jesters. Boys doing push-ups, these guys doing like bottle dances, jumping over each other. Like you're you're like you're outperforming everyone else. That I can get behind behind.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

If it's a talent quest.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

Yeah, it's like literally a talent quest. But like the music's playing, everyone's sweaty, all of the like ladies are on their side watching, all of the guys are like making idiots out of themselves. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 23:28

Okay, great. Just don't.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

I've seen religious women, like fully religious women, do the worm. Yeah, that I can get behind. To like to bring joy to the bride and groom, and then it brings joy to everyone else as well. I've actually only seen one religious woman do the worm, but I will think about that forever.

SPEAKER_02 23:46

The other thing that um people are doing in contemporary Jewish weddings, uh, which I quite like, is the groom has has their own entrance with like that's always. Nah. No, no, no, no, no. Not at your wedding? I'm no, I'm saying it at Jewish weddings.

SPEAKER_01 24:01

Yeah, but I'm saying it's not like a contemporary thing, it's like an always thing.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

I don't think it's always been a thing. I think back in the day the groom would stay there waiting for the bride, like traditionally. Now I I think it's from the advent of Advent? Is that the word I'm looking for? The advent of Instagram and all that stuff. No, it predates that. Grooms want their own entrance?

SPEAKER_01 24:20

No, it's uh it's always been a thing.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

Do we need to fact check that?

SPEAKER_01 24:23

No, because I know. Okay. Like as in like at my parents' wedding, which predates Instagram. Yes. Your like your parents walk you down the aisle. Okay. That that's fully before like the contemporary times. Great. But I agree, it's fantastic. Yeah. Grooms also deserve a little something-something on their wedding.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

They do.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

So parents standing next to the chupa. It's a Jewish tradition that the parents stand by the chuppa.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

I think they're supposed to technically stand on the outside of it, but usually everyone gets crammed underneath.

SPEAKER_02 24:56

Yes. So it's to me, there's nothing funny or there's nothing more symbolic than the presence, omnipresence of Jewish parents or in-laws by them being cramped under the chuppa. And usually when I'm the celebrant, one obviously one party is not Jewish, so I have to be the one to tell the Jewish parents, just give them a little bit of space. Yeah. Or I have to tell the family that's not Jewish that they're required to stand by them.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

They're like, I thought I was just going to be sitting in the front row. No, you've got to stand there.

SPEAKER_02 25:26

Yeah. The next one I'm really passionate about. Cover bands singing Michael Jackson. Interesting. Hate it. Why? Because Michael Jackson is a pedophile, and I don't think that we should be dancing to his music.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

That's a deeper question.

SPEAKER_02 25:43

At a wedding about cancel culture. No, it's also just his songs are annoying at weddings. So is Greece. If you put on Grease lightning at a wedding, I will leave the dance floor.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

Do you want to know the actual T about covers at Jewish weddings? Yes. Okay. There is this conundrum in the ultra-orthodox world of music, right? And again, you have these bands who have these fantastic musicians who can only do Jewish songs because you don't listen to secular music because it's bad for your soul. Right. So it's like you're always listening. Allegedly. So you're only listening to Jewish songs. But then you enter this conundrum where so many Jewish songs are actually covers of non-Jewish songs. But if you pick that up and you tell on them, right, you're admitting that you two are listening to non-Jewish music. And so they get away with it. And so there's this video. It's one of the best videos in the Frum world. I will find it for you when we finish recording. I'll post it on my story when this comes out. But it is Shire and Perry's wedding dance. And like when like it's the first song that they will enter their wedding into. And it's a Lady Gaga cover. And it's like everybody, I think it's like, let's get married. Like it's paparazzi, but it's for Shire and Perry. And no one knows this in the people, it's a Hasidic wedding. And it's Lady Gaga. It is the best internet you'll see. That's the actual tea. Like, like covers are fine because cover bands are amazing, but when it's like we're singing Muzzletov and Simotov, but to Lady Gaga, the best.

SPEAKER_02 27:23

We go to very different weddings, it would appear. We do. Jewish weddings in Western countries. I'm talking Australia, UK, United States, Canada. There is a tradition for speeches. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

You don't think there should be?

SPEAKER_02 27:41

I think the speeches should be minimal. Minimal. I think people should have more discretion with who they ask. And I this is this is a message to fathers of the bride or groom. If you are mentioning your child's HSE or high school results in their wedding speech. What if they're 19?

SPEAKER_01 28:06

What if they're child brides?

SPEAKER_02 28:07

It doesn't even matter how well they did in university. Like, this is not the platform to talk about how amazing your child is. This is the platform to thank everyone for what they've done to get this couple to this point in time. Or to talk about your future in-law and what you love about them. It's not it's not the time nor place to be talking about how good your son is.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

I think this is an every wedding. Like this isn't specific to Jewish weddings.

SPEAKER_02 28:36

No, it is. It really is. I think slightly different. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:42

I think that most Jewish weddings I've been to, there's a very set formula for who who gets to speak. And it's usually parents of e of both or either side, the bride and the groom together, siblings. Or the brides together. Or the brides groom together. Yeah. And siblings. That's like sometimes the siblings do it like all together. Yeah. Right. So then you've got that's like one speech, all siblings, one speech. And then usually another sibling is the MC throughout the night. So you like spread those jobs. Parents, that's two speeches because you usually have two sets for either side. Yeah. And then the couple. So you're getting three, four speeches tops. It's two. I agree. I agree that I agree that they need to be shortened. I agree that um it's treated as like your type five, right? The comedy hour shouldn't be. But I do think that speeches are important at weddings. And I insisted on having one at our wedding. Like I spoke, I was the only speech at our wedding. I see, that is what You were like, we don't, we know that our parents aren't speakers. We don't want them to speak. Skye didn't want to speak because she knew she'd cry, so that I spoke.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

Perfect.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

But I think I think it's better. I think it's nice to have siblings, optional. It's nice to have parents. Oh no, there's an alarm.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

Viewers and listeners, there's an alarm going off, but we're almost finished with this episode, so keep going. Um, the final thing that I will say, my final rant, you do not need bridesmaids and groomsmen. It's out of control. There's too many of them. I don't understand why they are all wearing the same thing. It looks cultish, it looks weird, it's expensive.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

I have put I'm sorry, I feel like um yucking your yum on all of your different things. I I agree. I think the matching is silly. Have you seen South African weddings? No. Okay, so in in South African weddings, they call the bridal party the retinue. Yes. And they are made up of I've seen like 30 bridesmaids. Yeah. Like genuine, like 15 of your nearest and dearest, and then 15 men to match up. Like that's too much. I do think there is a role for your close friends who are helping you with stuff in the wedding. 100%. I think what's happened is that bridesmaid culture has turned into it's all just the look of it. And it's and you you want the title without putting in the work. Yep. Bridesmaids are supposed to be you are helping me find flowers. You are helping me with actual tasks for this wedding. And in return, you are wearing a beautiful dress and you are like symbolically part of my people in this in this whatever it is, right? What's happened is like it's just gone crazy. Yeah. And then you get, and then people get angry when they're bridesmaids, but then they're asked to do stuff. I think the real thing that's gotten out of control is like spending a thousand dollars on like hens parties and and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 31:38

Yeah, and and this is happening a lot in the Jewish community, and it needs to stop.

SPEAKER_01 31:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:43

And I'm hearing about grooms, what are the group bachelor parties, what do they call it? Bucks trips in Vegas. Hater. Bucks trips. Like what is going on?

SPEAKER_01 31:55

Um however, I will say, yeah, I'm very grateful for all of the batshit, crazy internet posts that come out of like bridesmaid politics.

SPEAKER_02 32:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

That's the best stuff. That's true. I love it. That's some of the best Reddit posts. Some of the best internet. Yeah.

Paying For Conversion: The Ach Shame

SPEAKER_02 32:13

Um, okay, let's wrap it up. We have Ach Shame segment.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

Ach shame.

SPEAKER_02 32:21

Today's post comes from a Jewish Facebook group in a city. In a country. In a country. Somewhere. Okay. Why don't um you've been hearing a lot from me this episode, so why don't you read it today?

SPEAKER_01 32:40

Does anyone know a way to convert by simply paying money and get a certificate recognized by some sort of chabad? We don't believe in the nonsense, but just want our kid to have their future open. Dad is secular, Jewish, mum is just a person. Thanks.

SPEAKER_02 32:57

Yikes. Alright. Who do you reckon wrote this? The dad. Dad, you reckon? Yeah. The dad. Yeah. It's a dad who is like just fed up and frustrated.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

It's a dad who has to reckon with some deep-seated internalized, like anti-religion stuff. Yeah. Because if you actually don't believe in the nonsense and you actually don't care, you wouldn't care. You know what I mean? You don't care so much that you still want your kids to be Jewish somehow. And I I can actually talk about this a lot. Because what it also is, is it someone who's like drunk the you know total orthodox Kool-Aid? Right? There are communities in Australia and around the world that would accept your kids as Jewish if you are partaking in their services. Right? If you are going to a progressive synagogue and you're involved in community, those kids can be considered Jewish. They can have a very robust, open Jewish life. If you don't actually care, don't do it.

SPEAKER_02 34:02

I see this through the lens of someone with kids and thinking about their enrollment in schools. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

But I'm like, if if it doesn't matter to you, send them to a different private school.

SPEAKER_02 34:14

No, I think it's this person thinking, well, the Jewish school is really good. I want them to go to Jewish school. And if the reform schools or the schools that don't care about patrilineal descent are fully like they have no more enrollments, then I need to keep options open for the modern Orthodox schools, therefore. What I'm saying is, is if you actually don't care.

Share, Review, And Disagree Loudly

SPEAKER_01 34:36

This person doesn't care. Yeah. They don't believe in the, like, they don't. It it seems as though like they are not culturally Jewish either, right? They they they are hot, but they want their kids to hold on to something. If you actually don't care, send them to a non-Jewish private school where you get equally as good, if not better, education. I think that this person deeply does care, can't admit it to themselves, hasn't had the proper conversations with their partner who they met, you know, when they were first went off the derek or whatever it is, and is just like trying to play it too cool. In summary, just like clearly it's important to just do the work, have some hard conversations, and like do some inner work. So are we shaming this guy's anonymous member? Yeah. Alright. Shame on you. Also for like not understanding what conversion is and not understanding the Jewish ethno-religion of what it means to like partake in community. Like listen to a podcast, learn some things. Get a life. Listen to Ashamed to Admit and Understand what Judaism is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You've been watching slash listening to. Ashamed to admit with me, Shoshana Gottlieb, and this Tammy Sossman. You forgot the Becca part of your name. What I did. You've been watching, slash, listening to, ashamed to admit with me, Shoshana Gottlieb Becker.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

And you, Tammy Sossman. This episode was brought to you by the Jewish Independent with Ali Wei Productions. Sorry?

SPEAKER_01 36:03

The Jin Dependent.

SPEAKER_02 36:04

The vocalist in our theme song is Saria L. The siren in the background is annoying. More credits in the show notes, which I encourage you to read.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

Do you actually have show notes? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:18

Never read them. Lazy.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

If you enjoyed this episode, share it around and give us a positive review.

SPEAKER_02 36:25

Really, though, share it around. Forward it to someone. If you like any of the content that's posted on Instagram, share it to your stories with a link to the show.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

More importantly, if you disagree with us, let us also know in the comments.

SPEAKER_02 36:37

Yes, we like it. We like it. When you're disagreeing, it means you're listening. Thank you so much. And see you next week.