Ask us anything! With Daisy Turnbull

Author, educator, mental health advocate and crochet enthusiast Daisy Turnbull joins Tami & Shoshana in the ASHAMED TO ADMIT studio, to ask them some questions about Judaism, that Jewcurious allies might be too ASHAMED TO ASK. Plus, someone in a Jewish Facebook group needs to know if their favourite Jewish doctor is avoiding them. 

This episode was filmed and edited by Alleyway Productions 

You can watch the full episode on YouTube

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The vocalist in the theme song is Sara Yael @iamsarayael

Transcript

Welcome Back And Meet Daisy

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Ashamed to ask, ashamed to admit, got dewy, dewy questions. This is it, this is it. Why is wicked simple or unsure how to ask? We'll open up the books, the ark will open up your cynical heart. No such a thing as a dumb question, okay, that's mostly true. Tammy and Shoshana are here for you. Ashamed to admit.

SPEAKER_02 0:30

Ashamed to ask. It's everything you didn't get in Jewish studies class.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Hi everyone. Welcome back to another very special episode of Asham to admit. I'm Tammy Sussman.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

And I'm Shoshana Gotley Becker. I don't know why I said that as a question.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

I'm Shoshana. Gotley Becker. Shoshana? Yes. Shoshana? Yes. Why is this a very special episode? We have a third.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

We invited a friend. We made friends.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

I mean, AJ's our friend, but.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

AJ, our producer, is our friend. Um, and today there are equal numbers of Jew and non-Jew. I don't know why I made it like some kind of weird competition or I don't know. We are AJ's AJ's not outnumbered. I just see people at the So a few seasons ago, um, myself and my ex-co-host had a little special called A Shame to Ask. In fact, that's just kind of where the idea of this podcast of you and I co-hosting, it it came about then because you and I had such good banter, we were like, we should do a podcast together. Do you remember that? I do. Okay. You said that I made you believe in God. She likes to remind me of that. Um so a few seasons ago, we, myself and my ex-co-host, invited people who weren't Jewish to ask us questions. I think I should have said we asked non-Jewish allies. I like that. I like that better. We asked them to ask us all the questions they might be too ashamed to ask. So today, our third, our very special guest is the author of the books 50 Risks to Take with Your Kids and 50 Questions to Ask Your Teens. She's also an educator, mental health advocate, and crochet enthusiast. It's Daisy Turnbull.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. Um, I did have like my imposter syndrome, Why Are They Asking Me moment this week. Okay. Tammy and I had a great chat. She's like, no, no, it's gonna be great. So thank you. I'm excited.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

And now you're here and you're realizing there's nothing to worry about with these divas. Did you, for those of us watching, did you crochet your cardigan? I had to wear it.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

That's fun. It's fun, keeps me calm, you know.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

I um like Sky knits. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

I do both, but I prefer crochet.

SPEAKER_02 3:07

But then at one time I was like, what'd be so fun if we like earned how to crochet and then because she can kind of do it and then we can like make a blanket or something. And so Sky's like, let's do it. We buy all of this stuff. I tried it one time and I was like, I'm never doing this again. I'm like, I literally I tried it for 45 seconds. I'm like, there's no, I'm I'm never looking at this again. I can't conceptualize how like when you do the things, it turns into things. Like, I know that sounds so stupid, but like I can't conceptualize how the actions I'm doing turn into something bigger.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Uh happy to teach you one day. I I really love it. It's very calming. And I think when my kids were little and they were at playgrounds and, you know, doing things that I wanted to keep an eye on, but I didn't want to be, you know, helicoptering. Yeah, it's a good thing to do to kind of while you watch TV, while your, you know, kids are in the playground or watching AFL, something like that. So I really love it.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

And I love making things for people. It's also a good barrier to not have to engage with other parents at the playground. So yeah, that's good. Yeah. Hey, I think we should get straight into it because we don't want to run over time. And Daisy pre-sent me some of these questions, and she had so many great questions. So I reckon we should just get straight into it.

Kosher Fish Fins And Scales

SPEAKER_02 4:18

Happy to.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

So uh my partner and I were listening to your episode on kosher uh last week, and it made me wonder the thing about fish with fins and scales. And someone was saying to me that even in like the deepest seas, you know, North Sea, you won't find fish that have, is it fins and no scales or scales and no fins, and how um, I guess awesome in its true sense of the word that is. Can you tell me about that? Um, yes, I had to Google this when I saw the question.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

Love, love it. I I want to preface by saying that like the rabbis get a lot wrong about the natural world and the medical world. Okay. Um, like Talmudically, um, because they're working within their sort of frame of reference. So I don't think that like all religious text is like, you know, amazing, getting everything right. Like I must say they do get a lot wrong. Yeah. Um I wonder when because there's not really much on it. I think maybe the thing is is that they're not like deep sea diving. No. In the, you know, in like wherever in Norway where there's like freaky fish that like there are those things. They're sort of with the lamp on it and that's exactly right. So I think that has fins but no scales. But all scaled fish have fins. Yeah. And so I reckon that they're sort of where they're doing their fishing in the Mediterranean around there. They're just like kind of like that's the fish they're finding. You know what I mean? Like it's such a boring answer. Like I think like they're being informed by oh, the writers of the book are being informed by their exact surroundings.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Yeah, okay. Because I had heard that if there are scales, there are gonna be fins.

SPEAKER_02 6:04

Yeah, but I think all fish have I could be wrong. But they're obviously fins with no scales, like the I think there's fins without scales, but I think all fish except for eels have fins. Yeah. Like the more wormy ones.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

Yeah. Yeah. Shoshan, I'm so glad Daisy turned to you for that answer. I don't know. I don't know. I actually tuned out throughout that whole answer. I think so. Okay, so maybe this is a better answer.

SPEAKER_02 6:31

I don't know. A lot in a lot of what happens in Judaism is that things happen historically. Yes. For historical reasons, and then the rabbis retroactively fit in meaning to that thing. Um, and so specifically with something like Kashur, it's not a so again, let me take another step back. There's three different kinds of laws in the Torah, or there's one of the ways to categorize the laws, uh civil law, which is, you know, don't murder, etc. There's testimonial law, so that's things like we keep Passover because it is reminding us of a time, we keep Shabbat because it's reminding us of the seventh day of creation, all of that stuff. And then there's also one that's just called um chokim, which is we don't know why we do them. And kashrat is one of those things. And so I think because there's a lot of mystery around there's really specific like what we can and can't do, but there's not a lot of why to those actions. And so then so I think people come up with these things of like how amazing is it that these kashrut laws they knew all of the kinds of fish that were alive, right? They name the birds by um like there's a there's a category for how we define fish, right? It's sort of it's again, it's got these physical characteristics, the same with mammals, but birds, there's just a list of birds, right? And how amazing is it that this list of birds are still kind of definitional in today's world. But I think it's just people trying to ascribe extra meaning to these things. At least that's my historical cultural understanding, because yeah, because you can also read in that religious well, which a lot of people do.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

Yeah, yeah. All right, cool. Um, so speaking of historical record

Why Jewish Years Are Counted

SPEAKER_01 8:13

days.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Um so my question was so we're in the year 5786 now, correct? Um, I think of so much of ancient history as I could have been anywhere in the space of 50 years, it's around this time, but Judaism has kept track of its years so well. How?

SPEAKER_02 8:29

Um it's a great question. So again, historically, we kind of only have archaeological record from if we're talking in sort of sort of Tanakh books, right? Like Old Testament books from the later kings of sort of the the Davidic line. Anything before that is story and oral history, but we don't have physical proof of that. So a lot of our dating currently comes from the archaeological stuff, but also timekeeping in in Jewish law is really, really important. So when it hits about I don't know, Josephus era, kind of that Roman era, we have um we have secular texts that can corroborate those dates, and then we can sort of backdate from those religiously, and everything kind of fits in as we've thought. And because timekeeping is so important in terms of both the calendar year, but also on a daily basis, we kind of just trust that they're doing it well. Right. I feel like there's a lot of mistrust of calendar systems, and there's this like the theory, you know, that we're missing uh 400 years in the medieval period, these dark periods. We just kind of trust that it again, it's kind of a boring answer, but because there's so much emphasis on the importance of time and knowing when the new moon is, and we we trust that the rabbis in charge of that were meticulous and what they were doing. And then we have the secular record coming, like sort of kicking in around the Roman conquest of the land, so that we can sort of start corroborating those dates and then from their date backwards. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

And at that point it becomes easy. Everyone's pretty much on the same timing.

SPEAKER_02 10:09

F from from like Roman to current day, yeah, everyone's on the same page. Roman back, who's to say? No one thinks the same, you know? What is it?

SPEAKER_01 10:20

Is Mahmeer, you've written in your notes that we also just trust that the rabbis were mahmeer enough? Does that just mean meticulous?

SPEAKER_02 10:27

Mahmeer is like when you're super careful about your practice. Okay. So if I'm mahmeer about keeping Shabbat, I'm careful in how I keep Shabbat.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Okay. And Jews are historically known to be the religious Jews. A careful people.

SPEAKER_02 10:41

A careful people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Mahmeer.

SPEAKER_02 10:43

Well, I think it's it's also like it's our entire world. Like the religious world, and again, if we're talking back in the day, everyone, it's everyone's world. Right. There is no distinction between a religious world and a secular world. Your entire world is dictated by time. Right? The reason that women don't do a lot of the commandments is because the rabbis say women don't have to do positive, time-bound commandments. Right. So things like I have to do things at a certain time of the day. I have to go to synagogue, I have to pray. Women don't have to do that because they're in the home and they have different things to be doing, right? They're they're too busy to keep up with these kind of commandments. Like our everyday is the rabbis spend a lot of time figuring out exactly when the sun comes up so that you can say the prayers at the right time. And they spend a lot of time talking about, well, what does it mean when the new month starts? Because according if the month starts tomorrow, that means Rosh Hashanah's are going to be pushed off, you know, an extra. They spend a lot of time concerned with time as a concept and the process of time and the passing of time. And so again, we trust that their meticulous dating is connected to that.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

So you're saying religious Jews are slats for timekeeping.

SPEAKER_02 11:53

Yeah.

unknown 11:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

I also like my fun thing that I always always tammy's words, not ours. Um, I recommend sometimes going onto like the Jewish calendar Wikipedia page. And then if you scroll down far enough, they come up with like these hectic like mathematical equations on how they figure out certain different things. Because there's always like a, well, if this happens, then that, if that happens, then this. Like it's really it's too much for me.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

I will absolutely not be going on that Wikipedia page. Daisy? Yeah, no, I'm we're just a bunch of a bunch of English guys.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

I don't I don't go onto that Wikipedia page because I get to come onto a podcast and ask you questions. Um, okay, so obviously as a crocheter, I love calming

Ritual As Calm Tzitzit And Shuckling

SPEAKER_00 12:32

activities. And I saw something on Instagram that was saying that the I'm gonna say it wrong, but the zit zit it, uh, is like the original fidget toy for prayer and calming. And I just wonder how how does ritual and faith calm you both?

SPEAKER_02 12:47

You can take this one.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

Please, if you're only listening to this, please watch this just for shit on the look she's giving me now. How does ritual and faith calm me? Yeah. I think the main way that I practice now is every second week I will go to an egalitarian service where it's very music-based. We sit in circles and concentric circles. And um, that is my time where I am disconnected from my phone for one hour, which is huge these days. Disconnected from my phone, disconnected, my kids aren't there, and I am just, it is just me connecting to something. At some point, I thought, yeah, that could be God, it could be some version of God. It's just nothing else except for me and something. I don't know, if it's if we can define it as spiritual, but it's just a moment to connect to ancient language and community, and I find that very calming. But that's pretty much all I can think of right now.

SPEAKER_02 14:11

Maybe I'll think of your Friday night dinners at family aren't calming, too.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

They are far from calming. Yeah, yeah. Shoshana's probably got more to say about this.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

I don't know. I find I think I I take comfort in structures, right? And I think a lot of people thrive under structure, and I do think that's part of why Judaism has survived for as long as it has, because it gives you I don't know, like it gives you a way by which to live. And I I take great comfort in that of like the intentionality behind action um in my day-to-day life and the way I think and things like that. Um, I think what's really interesting, so firstly with tit, fidgety, but also like the ultimate sort of like ADHD reminder. So the whole point of wearing titsit is something.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Explain what that is.

SPEAKER_02 15:04

So titsit is a commandment that if you wear a four-cornered garment, you're supposed to put these tzitsit, which are like strings and knots, at the corner of each garment. Tassels. The tassels, yeah. Yeah, and so um again, back in the day, ponchos or these four-cornered garments would have been, you know, just like I'm wearing a cloak because it's a bit cold out, but I'm gonna make sure that if I'm wearing this, it's it's distinctly Jewish with the with these tassels on the corners. As fashion has evolved, um, thank God, away from the poncho and the four-corneredness, in order to be able to keep that mitzvah, we've um we've created a garment called sit-sit that we always have on that has those things. So instead of it's if I'm wearing something that looks like this, I have to add the strings to, I'm going to wear this garment all the time to signify my religiosity. But the whole point of it is that you're wearing clothes and you you're supposed to look down and have a reminder of God. So, like if you're about to do something naughty, you'll always have these reminders at the sides of you. Um, which yeah, I think it's cool. And then, like, and now it's like sort of evolved, and like people sort of are holding it in this, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

Cause there was this Instagram video that I saw from Crochet, which this woman had like crocheted this top, the the purple one, the purple one, and and I've seen the purple top. It's this square that you put in, it's got the hole for your head, and then it's got these things wrapped around, and then you shared it on your Instagram, and like, oh, I love that you know, to have become the inspiration for crochet. And I was like, oh, that's exactly what it looks like. I haven't thought of literally think of it.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

Um, but I've seen like young men use their tefillin as fidgets, and by fidgets, I mean like they take the end of it and like whip each other in sure and like sort of just like are always playing with it. Um, and the the ultimate sort of I think um fidget, not really fidget, but like sort of calming thing that Jews do is shockling, which is when they pray, they'll like bow and move their body, or like when they're learning, and the repetitive action of just like moving your body becomes like meditative, but it's also like it's like a calming thing.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

It is. Can I tell you? Sorry, Daisy, where I learnt the word shukling from. I would love to hear. I didn't know, even though I'm Jewish and and went to Jewish school. It's a Yiddish word, I think.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

Shall we assume?

SPEAKER_01 17:24

I learnt it when when I had a baby and you could know on the pram. Someone was like, Oh, you just need to shuchle the pram while the baby's sick. What does that mean? And they said, like, vibrate it.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

Yeah, you just rock it. Because I remember when my kids were little, I was once at the shop without my kids and I was getting like, I think maybe like a bag of oranges, and I was swaying. Yes, oranges and how old are your kids? I was like, Yep, this age. Yeah, this age.

SPEAKER_02 17:51

Amazing. I've had like students, um, like because we have a rabbi who runs prayers every morning, and one of the students being like, Why are you guys always rowing? And they're like, because it looks like they're like kind of like like, where are you guys racing to? That's amazing. The shockling.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Okay, um, I'm hoping this is one that you guys might disagree

Jewish Representation On Screen

SPEAKER_00 18:11

on a bit. But what are your favorite and least favorite depictions of Jewish people and Judaism in TV and movies? Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

Finally, someone has asked this question, and we will disagree because there's a generational gap and also and a taste gap. Yeah, there definitely is a taste gap. Best and worst. You want me to go first? Okay. Best, um, transparent, the nanny, but I want to talk about the importance of the nanny. I know it's problematic in other ways, a lot of fat phobia and whatever, but I want to get into the importance of that in my generation. And I've also written a real pain for film Oh, lovely. Top notch. But I want to explain my answers after you give yours. Okay. Um no, I didn't say worst, but I'll go.

SPEAKER_02 19:02

So I have only given my worst. Okay. Which I think uh Glee, because I'm re-watching Glee right now. And Glee's one of my I've just watched it with my daughter. One of my favorite shows of all time. And like when it's genuinely like a mood improver for me. When I'm feeling down, I'll just watch like my favourite performances. I love it to death. This watch back, I'm like, uh, the Jewish stuff does feel problematic. Yeah. In terms of just like Rachel Berry as the most visibly and and um overtly. Over no, but like like vocally Jewish character who is always talking about how she's this annoying little Jewish girl. And so they're just trying to tie her Jewishness into the package that is an overbearing, um hyper talented, too big for this town kind of person. I don't like that this time round. And then there's lots of these like little jokes that get made at her expense that again, it's in it's in the spirit of glee. Everyone gets made fun of, but I don't, I've just I maybe it's the time the space of life I'm in, the time sort of the season I'm in. I'm not such a fan of those jokes this time around. I'm a bit more sensitive to them.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

What else don't you like?

SPEAKER_02 20:20

We'll take a deep breath.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

Oh, so you're doing only your negatives. Only my negatives. And you're doing only your positive.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

No, I want to do my negatives too.

SPEAKER_02 20:27

There is a movie called The Unborn. It is a 2008 schlocky horror movie. The premise of the movie is about Dibbooks. So like Jewish demons who take over soul, like take over bodies and things like that. But the two things you need to know about this story is number one, it has a Holocaust-themed like backstory to it. So, like the grandmother of the protagonist was in the Holocaust and survived, but her twin sister, who was tested on her body, was taken over by a Dibbook in a concentration camp. Too much for a D-list, like F-list kind of movie, when doing too much. Second thing, Gary Aldman plays a rabbi, which is my least favorite sentence to say out loud. Um, it is one of the most shockingly horrif. It was the single worst Jewish themed movie I had ever seen until I had seen the movie called Shalom Tango, which was so incredibly bad about a rabbi who needs to save his in like New York, he needs to save his yeshiva from closing. He's a teacher, and so he enters a tango competition for like the exact amount of money needed. And it's about like him and this woman, and he finds this like sexy, sultry Latin dance teacher, and because he's fruit and he can't touch her, they figure out an entire dance routine without touching. Oh my god. And it is the single worst movie you've ever seen in your entire life. And he goes to like his rabbi to get permission to dance, and the rabbi's like, no, you're religious. So then he's like, Okay, I'll go get permission from a priest, and then he like goes to all these different Religions to try and find religious justification, and I'm like, this is like the worst movie I've ever seen. Anyway, Renee Taylor from The Nanny is in it. Oh no. Single worst piece of media I've ever had to like consume consume in my entire life. Horrible. Set us back decades. How did it be?

SPEAKER_00 22:18

On the assumption that anyone watched it.

SPEAKER_02 22:20

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Fair. You know what? A saving grace.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Can I do my worst? Yeah. Are you finished? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:29

So what was your best? Okay, my best is um um the Cohen Brothers one. Is it a simple man?

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Um Cohen Brothers. Oh, that got a mention. Yeah, yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 22:43

Um is it called a simple. I don't think it's a simple man.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Look it up. Look it up while I talk about my worst. I know it well enough that I don't know the name. Okay, I think speaking of maybe this is why I cannot will not watch Nobody Wants This. Yeah, I was gonna ask if I knew so I kind of dipped in and out of the OC because I wasn't really it was around when it was like coming of age at the serious man, sorry. The serious man, yeah. That's that has to be the best. Yes, very good. Yep. Um, so I watched the OC and it was all very ha ha, it's great. There's you know, Seth Christma car. Chris McCa. And I was like, that's great. But now looking back, and especially after I saw the film come to my oh, you are so not invited to my butt mitzvah. What shits me to no end is the representation of Jews coming from extreme wealth, being flippant with that, um, kind of being, yeah, the the Jewish American or Jewish Australian princess. Hate that. I hate that it's are you disagreeing with me?

SPEAKER_02 23:53

I'm working through my thoughts as well.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

Like they exist, but I hate that that has become the norm or like that that's the main You don't want that to be people's entry point into Judaism. Yes, 100%. And so when Nobody Wants This came into the zeitgeist, shall we say? I was hearing that similarly to Rachel Berry, I didn't watch Glee, that the women I'm older than the women is really interesting in that.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

The women, what did you notice, Daisy? I loved that show. Um I teach studies of religion. I think do you teach that as well? No, you teach religious studies. Yeah, yeah. And so we do Holocaust Theology is one of our um depth studies. And in the first episode, he talks about the 614th mitzvah. And I was like, oh, that's great. I didn't show it to my students, sorry. Um and I thought it was really funny. I thought actually that yes, there were probably obviously some stereotypes thrown in, especially about the um women in the family. But I thought what I loved about it is it showed the difference between, regardless of what religion it is, a secular life and a faith and community-based life. And that's what I liked about it. And that if you are someone who is super secular, like um Joanne is in the show, I think her name's Joanne. Yeah, you would find it, you might find it overwhelming, you might find it overbearing, but actually there's a lot of warmth to it, which is what I liked about it. I have some Jewish friends who love it, think it's hilarious, don't take it too seriously, some Jewish friends who hate it, and I have now two Jewish friends who are like, I will not watch it. It's there's no no good will come from me watching it.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

Yes. I watched a single episode of it, and I was immediately like, I don't like I don't like how Jewish women specifically are portrayed in this show. And I don't like that it's set up a very specific, um, very old kind of um, you know, duality between the waspy blonde lady and then the the sharp, like shrewish, Jewish loud lady. And so that's why I was like, I'm I'm tapping out because like I just don't need this in my life.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

Apparently that evolves, and I think put possibly the writers got that feedback, and so they're making an effort in the second season. Good on them. I think it's important uh important for people to know that in Australia we there's less representation of maybe not less representation, but we are less reform than the Americans, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

So it's very to us, maybe there's something like jarring about seeing for a lot of my friends, it feels foreign to them in terms of the American-ness and the reformness. I was gonna say specifically, part of the thing, and again, I haven't seen it like I'm making these judgment calls based on like just gut feelings. There's this sort of thing that happens where Jewish culture or religiosity specifically can only be viewed on screen either reform or ultra-orthodox. Yeah. And I think that both of those entry points feel voyeuristic for different reasons, and no one like I've never seen myself as you know, someone who grew up in the modern Orthodox world who was just like a regular person with this other flavor thrown in. Yeah. Like though they don't exist on screen. You have to either go like reform, where it's like it looks exactly like what I imagine sometimes a church would look like, especially like American reform, or you have to go to the complete opposite where it against this voyeuristic sort of zoo animal kind of approach to seeing the ultra-orthodox.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

Yes. Um and then throw on top of that queer representation, yeah. Yeah. Um, not high socioeconomic. Like there's so many other things.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

It's just I will say I disagree with the OC about like the blatant wealth thing because I think it's it's set in a wealthy, like everyone in that show is a wealthy print.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

Okay, yes. So what I mean, and so Seth wasn't the standout.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

If anything, Seth is the one who's like the most down to earth. And I think like maybe that's a commentary of like his Jewishness is something that grounds him that it doesn't the other really rich teenage. I don't think anyone really put it that way.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Yeah, that's that's that's more analysis than I put into it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

I don't know, but like as in I I was a bit too young for those. You were. You were. I watched like a first season, but at when I was a bit older. Uh-huh. I was a it was like my cousins watched it who were a bit older than me. Yes. It was a my cousins show to me. It wasn't like a me show.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

Yeah, no, you would have been like three years old when it came out.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

I also kind of disagree with Transparent. Okay. But maybe that's an episode on its own. We could do another time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

And I mean, I just thought it was finally some kind of queer representation within that, yeah, and and I don't know. I liked it. I liked it. I but I want to put more of my energy into the nanny. Sure. Because even though she is presented as loud and over the top and annoying, um, at the time when it first came out, there was no Jewish representation. The mainstream for my age group, there was Seinfeld. Um, but I was too young for that. So for my friends and I, seeing that, that was like an age-appropriate, so and Seinfeld, I think, is like Jewish in flavor, but she was talking about Hanukkah, and she was talking about like I think that there's an authenticity, like, even though she it can be considered a stereotype, there's an authenticity to her character that grounds it in a way that you don't care about stereotypes. Yes, but I also like that she was kind of like, yeah, coming into this posh home, and she was, you know, rustling fancy.

SPEAKER_02 29:36

And I also think, and this is like super rare, like she was annoying and loud, or that she was also like a sex symbol, right? She was like in beautiful clothing, she was the romantic interest the whole way through. And that is, it is so rare to have a woman who looks stereotypically Jewish played by a Jewish woman in that kind of role. And I think that for me is the groundbreaking piece.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

And it has aged beautifully, it was also very queer friendly, which we now know we we know the reason behind that. Do you know the reason behind that?

SPEAKER_00 30:08

No, what what what was I?

SPEAKER_01 30:09

Her husband, who's the man she was married to at the time, was and is gay. Oh yeah. Um, and now they're besties, and I love that. And then Fran went on to be freedom fighter for trade union. Yeah, amazing. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

I actually went to New York last year with two of my best mates, and it was really sweet because I was into the nanny, but they were really into the nanny, and one of them was like, I want to stand outside the house and where the address was. It was that so cute. I was like, I this show was great. I remember it. It was not as uh definitive for me growing up, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

What was definitive for you?

SPEAKER_00 30:49

I don't know. I liked oh Buffy. Okay, I loved Buffy. I I met Sarah, Michelle Geller once. She's my height. That was a huge moment for me. How did you make it short? Uh she was in Sydney for making the um Scooby-Doo movies, and I saw her at a New Year's party. Shut the fuck up. Like at the opera house. Why do you love it?

SPEAKER_02 31:10

The Scooby-Doo movies, my entire childhood. That's crazy. Yeah, that's like I because here's the thing. I had a premonition that you were gonna say she was here for the Scooby-Doo movies like a second before you said it.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:20

I love those movies.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

They they were they actually know they are movies I should watch with my kids. You know, sometimes you go, oh, there are movies I watched as a kid I should rewatch. And a lot of them are so problematic. I love Ten Things I Hate About You. Still totally fine.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

That first Scooby-Doo movie.

SPEAKER_01 31:34

Any Jew coding in the Scooby-Doo movies?

SPEAKER_02 31:36

Well, I mean, Sarah Michelle Gell is Jewish.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

Okay, I thought you were gonna say Scooby-Doo is Jewish. No, no, no, if anything, shaggy.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

Okay, yeah, all right.

SPEAKER_02 31:46

The Seth Rogan archetype of Shaggy. Yeah. All right, okay.

Being An Ally And Spotting Antisemitism

SPEAKER_00 31:50

My final question: what are two or three things people can do to be allies to the Jewish community, and also two or three things people need to know about Judaism to be better informed human beings?

SPEAKER_02 32:01

I think the biggest thing currently is understanding what anti-Semitism looks like and that sometimes it is casual. Sometimes you don't realize that it is anti-Semitism because it's just a funny meme that's been passed around. And I think that and this isn't just for allies, I think this is also for like Jews of a certain age who think they're internet literate but actually don't know what's going on. Recognizing what anti-Semitism is in an online world so that you can better equip yourself and others to recognize it and so you can report it, block those people.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Yeah. And avoid it. And I think this goes to the question I messaged you about, but didn't add to the Google Doc, which is all in all, has social media been a positive or a negative for Judaism?

SPEAKER_02 32:49

If you had asked me this question five years ago, it'd be a different question.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:52

Um Different answer. What would you have said five years ago? Five years ago, I think it's a really great community builder. Um there's been a really like a lot of amazing democratization of thought and Jewish learning, not just social media, but the internet, and like giving people access to that and giving remote Jews access to Jewish community. I think in the last two to three years, it used to be that you've had like sort of these outer circles on like being the the sort of um people rising up in social media, right? And so and so you had the social media Judaism that you had was kind of this counter-cultural thing, and that has changed because now everyone has a microphone and everyone and it's it's kind of you know ironic to say as we are all sitting around microphones, but just everyone is now online and everyone thinks that their voice is worthwhile listening to. Um, and so it's just become like all of the ideas and all of the more oppressive things about community that people sought to get away from or provide counter to is now the mainstream voice on social media, at least that I am seeing, and then compound that with the sort of meteoric rise in anti-Semitism. Um yeah, that's what I that's my answer.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

What can people do to be better informed humans? Um, they could listen to this podcast, and if you want to be an excellent ally, you forward it on to 10 people. Absolutely. And you say, And you leave us good reviews.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

I was just gonna say the other thing is just like asking questions. Yeah. And I think like um people don't realize that Jews have this sort of basic cultural literacy in things like, you know, secular Christian culture and and I like knowledge around Christmas and Easter and all of these things, because we are living in a predominantly Christian society. But I think asking questions and understanding trying to understand Jewish culture in the same way that Jewish people are kind of forced to understand other cultures is a big thing because sometimes people just think it's you know, it's it's Christianity without Christmas, yeah. And they don't, and they don't even know that they don't know to ask. You know what I mean? Like that kind of thing. So just asking questions I think is always a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

Asking questions from a range of people too, because I've been in not I wouldn't say internet fights, I've had someone on Instagram who I work with try to explain anti-Semitism to me. They are not Jewish because they said, Well, this is what my friend who is Jewish says. I'm like, well, there's actually, yeah, a variety of opinions, and so I think just having one go-to Jewish friend is also potentially not the way to go. All right, it's time for everyone's favorite segment.

Shame In The Shtetl Doctor Mystery

SPEAKER_01 35:37

I think we didn't settle on a name, but we kind of did in the end. Shame in the steddel. Yeah. Shame in the stedl. So, Daisy, would you like the honor of reading this screenshot from a Jewish Facebook group in a city? In a town.

SPEAKER_02 35:53

Yeah, in the world, in the world.

SPEAKER_00 35:54

In a country, in the world. On this planet, we assume.

SPEAKER_02 35:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

Okay. Has anyone seen my beloved GP, Dr. Jonathan Pin Pinchower, in the last four months? I used to see him and contact him, but no replies or appointments for this long stretch of time. Is he okay? Away, working as normal and avoiding me, lol. Just wondering if anyone knows.

SPEAKER_02 36:14

I love that. I love this for so many reasons. Number one, it's like Does this Dr. Jonathan not have a receptionist? Right? It's like I want to know how many people are ignoring this anonymous user. Is it like Dr. Jonathan's been like, do not, do not answer their calls or just like put them off? Or is it one of these old school doctors where it's just a room where he sees like it's a waiting room and then his office, and so he doesn't have a secretary or receptionist? I have so many follow-ups. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:42

But I love it.

SPEAKER_02 36:43

I love it.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

Daisy, what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 36:45

Do you know? I actually had a thing happen a few years ago where um a doctor, a member of my family was saying, I won't, I don't want to identify people, but it was a child. Um the doctor actually died. And because you don't see this doctor that often, I rang up and said, Could we have another appointment with this doctor? And they're like, No, he he died like two months ago, and we didn't know. And so, you know, my fear of reading this was, oh my gosh, has maybe maybe something's happened to this doctor. Surely. And sure, like, do you get emails saying like and and was the assumption I don't know, I didn't I want to know what the 11 comments are saying.

SPEAKER_02 37:18

Like, I saw him yesterday, it's just a you thing.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

Like, yeah, so I'm I my fear would be either they hate me, they don't want to see me anymore. Obviously, go-to normal response. And second would be like, or maybe they died. And you're trying to find out.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

And yeah, I think judging by the intensity of this question, I think the receptionist has blocked this person's number. I think that's what I reckon.

SPEAKER_02 37:43

I like that you can see their anxious mind at work. Yeah. Because it goes from is he okay, right? Like, is he alive away on vacation? He doesn't like me. Lol. Like the lol throat peppet in there just to Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's great, it's a good time.

SPEAKER_01 37:58

So are we shaming this person or or do we think? I feel for them.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

I feel for them. I think ghosting is never okay.

SPEAKER_02 38:05

And yeah, and medical ghosting.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

And medical ghosting is hard because there's a lot of vulnerability there.

SPEAKER_02 38:11

That's true. But if you're like really annoying, like I kind of get it.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

You know what I mean? Like But wouldn't it be better for the world if that person knew they were annoying?

SPEAKER_02 38:20

But they this kind of person never knows. Needs to be told. Even then doesn't believe it.

SPEAKER_01 38:25

Alright. If you're listening to this podcast and you think you know who wrote this post.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

Tell us if Dr. Jonathan's okay so we don't feel really bad about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

But also tell the person who wrote this post that they're annoying. Yes.

Wrap Up Reviews And More Podcasts

SPEAKER_01 38:38

That's it for today's show.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

You've been listening and watching To Shame to Admit with Shoshana Gottlieb, Becker, Tammy Sussman, and me, Daisy Turnbull.

SPEAKER_02 38:47

This episode was brought to you by the Jewish Independent, also known as The Gin Dependent. With Ali Way Productions. It's actually in black, so I think that's you.

SPEAKER_01 38:57

The vocalist in our theme song is Saria L. More credits in the show notes.

SPEAKER_00 39:02

If you enjoyed this episode, share it around and give it a positive review. And shout out to Ellie, who is a big fan and asked me to do a shout-out one.

SPEAKER_02 39:09

But who's Ellie?

SPEAKER_00 39:10

My partner's cousin.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

Nice. Um, before we go, hey, a new thing we're gonna do. Um, we want to make sure you've discovered other podcast offerings from the Jewish Independent, also known as The Gin Dependent.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

Tensions Transplanted with Rob Kaldor and Isabel Oderberg is a deep diver into how the Israel-Palestine conflict has not just changed the Middle East.

SPEAKER_02 39:39

Now, in its third season, Tensions Transplanted features interviews with political, social, and community experts who can provide insightful and accessible analysis of our changing society.

SPEAKER_00 39:49

Download it now wherever you found this podcast. Thanks so much, and join Tammy and Shoshana next week for their season four finale.

SPEAKER_02 39:57

Hooray.

SPEAKER_03 39:57

Hooray!